Imminent Return of Christ

The six English translations before
the King James Version use "Departure"
(or some form of it) here. So "fall away"
means "departure" means "rapture".

BTW, i note this "falling away" was put
in the book in 1611 and John Darby didn't
come along until 1830

 

I'm going to take my part of this discussion over to the
proper place: "Baptist Theology & Bible Study" Forum.
This discussion will include the immenancy of the pretrib rapture.

click here -- The Questionalble Pretrib Rapture - Part 2 -- click here

See the intro post on page one, then the new posts
on page five. See you there.

Sorry, but when i first replied to the
Immenancy topic, I didn't realize i was
in the "Fundamental Baptist Forum."

Seems ever since we fundamental SBC-ers
(SBC = Southerin Baptist Convention)
took our convention back from the
conservatives (relative liberals) we
have been denounced as being the
ones we defeated: "conservatives" and
"Liberals". Independant Fundamental Southern
Baptists are not welcome in this forum.
So i'll continue to discuss the imminency
of the pretribulation rapture, soon
to appear at a World near you!

 

WARNING: LENGTHY POST FOR ED!

Duck and cover boys! Here come the elephants again!

Point 1: You “noticed a lot” that I failed to see what you were saying. Yet, you offer not one, single specific point on which I was in error from the scripture.

Point 2: I showed, from the scripture, how the 70th week, the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are all distinct periods of time and cannot be equated. Yet, you remain silent on this point and offer no rebuttal of any kind. Does this mean I’ve convinced you (I doubt it.)?

Point 3: Once again, in response, you offer no specifics but, rather, appeal to a laundry list of verses with no exegetical explanation of how these verses prove your point. As if, making a list is all the evidence you need. However, for the sake of argument, I’m willing to examine your lists in detail:

Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44: I have no dispute with this being a Rapture passage; however, I’m curious as to why you believe it is, because it clearly takes place after the AoD (vs. 15), after the GT (vs. 21-22), after the triple sign in the sky (vs. 29), after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man (vs. 30), and after Jesus appears to the entire earth in the sky (vs. 30).

Mark 13, Luke 21: These are parallel passages to the above Matt 24, and thus I redirect you to the above commentary on Matt 24:31-44. Again, most pre-tribs would say this is not a rapture passage because these events take place during the 70th week which you purport as the “tribulation” from which you will be raptured. You seem to have a contradiction in your theology.

John 14:1-3: No problem here; clearly a reference to the rapture.

Romans 8:19: Not sure how this one helps your argument…

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 These verses make no mention of the rapture and, in fact, make specific reference to the Day of Jesus Christ, another name for the Day of the Lord.

15:51-53 Rapture reference without a doubt; however, the mystery that Paul is revealing is not the FACT of the rapture, because Jesus Himself told us of that in Mt 24, Mk 13, and Lu 21, as you yourself have stated. What Paul is revealing is the MANNER of the rapture (ie, some will not go through physical death, but will be instantly changed into their glorified bodies.

16:22 This passage makes no mention of the rapture.

Philippians 3:20-21 While the rapture is alluded to, no eschatological timeframe is mentioned and, thus, does not help your argument.

4:5 No mention of the rapture here, just the idea that He is near us. Again, no help for you…

Colossians 3:4 This describes the same event as the gospels above, and hence the same points apply. (i.e. according to the gospels this happens WITHIN the 70th week)

1 Thessalonians 1:10 Rapture before wrath—no problem; however as shown in Point 2 above and my previous post, the wrath of God does not begin until after the AoD, GT, triple sign (once again, all within the 70th week, see note on the gospels above)

2:19 A somewhat vague allusion to the rapture; however it is clearly linked with His second coming. (Coming = parousia (noun), this is the same word used to describe His second coming many times in scripture as I’m sure we’ll see. Therefore, this passage does what you say it doesn’t: it shows that the rapture and the second coming are TOGETHER.

4:13-18 Again, in spite of what you say, the rapture (event) and second coming (timing) are mentioned together, for the same word is used again, parousia. Parousia is ALWAYS singular, there are not 2 parousias in the scripture, only one “THE coming”

5:9,23 Rapture before wrath again, same point as above. Again, vs. 23 uses parousia “THE coming”, one event. Again, the scriptures disprove your assertion.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 Here again is described the same events as Mt 24, Mk 13, Lu 21, again all within the 70th week, not before. You conspicuously ignore the next verse which clearly ties the rapture with the second coming when the wrath begins.

2:1 Again, coming = parousia, only ONE in the scriptures, ALWAYS singular; therefore, equivalent with the second coming (parousia).

2:3 Following from verse 1, here is stated that The Coming (parousia) will not occur until the apostasy and the AoD. By comparing scripture with scripture (ie the gospel accounts), the AoD is preceded by a time when many fall away from the faith because of the GT (eg Mt 24: 10, 12, etc.). And again, this happens WITHIN the 70th week.

1 Timothy 6:14 This makes no mention of the event of the rapture; rather, it mentions His unveiling, which has been shown above to be at the second coming (parousia)

2 Timothy 4:1,8 Again, no mention of the rapture in these. Again, reference to His appearing which is at the second coming (parousia), as seen Mt 24.

Hebrews 9:28 No rapture mentioned, just the second Coming; which, as has been stated, also says that some will witness. Therefore, the rapture and the second coming are linked in this one verse alone.

1 Peter 1:7, 13 Yet another mentioning of His appearing (apokalupsis) which happens at the second coming (parousia). Again is mentioned that some will see it; therefore, as before, rapture and second coming are linked.

5:4 “appear” here is the same word used in Mt 24, after the AoD, after the GT, after the triple sign, at the description of the Rapture, within the 70th week.

1 John 2:28-3:2 (Sigh…) Yet again, the words for appearing (apokalupsis) and coming (parousia) are linked together. Yet again, believers are shown to be witnesses of BOTH. Yet again, there is time distiction made between the rapture and the second coming.

Jude 1:21 This passage makes no mention of either.

Revelation 2:25 This passage makes no mention of the rapture either…just His coming (again, SINGULAR).


Well sports fans, lets tally the score at halftime:

Of the 26 passages you list under “Rapture only”, only 5 mention the Rapture by itself; 8 make no mention of the rapture at all, 9 link the rapture and The Coming, and 5 mention The Coming by itself. Perhaps you should reconsider this list… Oh well, you’ve still got the second half (list), maybe you’ll do better. Let’s see:

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45 No rapture mentioned (as expected in OT); however, no mention of a second coming of the Messiah, either. The context of the passage indicates that this passage shows the eventual dominance of God’s kingdom over all earthly kingdoms and nothing more.

7:9-14 Verse 9 indicates this is a heavenly vision, not an earthly one. Further, like the previous passage you state, this one establishes that God’s kingdom will eventually take over and rule. No specifics are given of the rapture (as expected), or the second coming of the Messiah.

12:1-3 Verse 1 makes reference to the GT. Verse 2 alludes to the resurrection of all for judgement, without regard to when the resurrections take place. So, from our knowledge of the NT, we know that the rapture is one of the resurrections to take place. Verse 3, speaks of the triumph of the righteous. There is no reference to the coming of the Messiah in any of these.

Zechariah 12:10 This verse shows that Israel will eventually recognize Christ as Messiah; however, it makes no allusions to the manner in which they will recognize Him or its timing.
14:1-15 These verses give various details about the Day of the Lord, but no specifics on the timing…

**Note: The above passages from the OT are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Since the details of the rapture were not revealed until Jesus came, we would not expect to find any reference to it in connection with the Day of the Lord passages in the OT. Further, there would be no reference to any time period, if any, that may elapse between the rapture and the Day of the Lord. Hence, listing OT passages as evidence of a temporal separation begs the question. It is a moot point.

Matthew 13:41 This is a general description of what will happen during the Day of the Lord. Again, no time references are mentioned… In fact, the phrase Jesus uses in verse 40, “the end of this world” (KJV), is the exact same wording in the Greek as the question the disciples asked of Jesus in Mt 24 of “the end of the age”. In the above rapture list, you claim Mt 24 as a description of the rapture, but here, the same phrase is used and you claim it for a different time period. Which is it?

Matthew 24:15-30 Let me get this straight…, verses 15-30 refer to the second coming, which you claim is at the end of the 70th week, but, above you said verses 31-44 speak of the rapture. So, your interpretation of Jesus words says second coming then Rapture, according to the order in MT 24, but you believe rapture, then second coming. Would you care to share with all of us the textual evidence in Mt 24 that shows both a break in flow between vs. 30 & 31, and that shows the events Jesus describes are in the OPPOSITE order in which He presents them?!?

26:64 The word “coming” here is a different word in the Greek than the one used consistently for the event (noun) of His return. “Parousia”, as discussed above, describes His coming as an event, here the word is “erchomai” (verb), and refers to His physical movement during the time period of the second coming. As such, it adds nothing to your case.

Mark 13,Luke 21 Now, I’m really confused. Above you claimed these as Rapture only passages, here you claim them as second coming only passages. Which is it? If you can’t tell a difference, that should lead you to the correct conclusion that there is no 7 year hiatus between the two.

Acts 1:9-11 Jesus returns physically, no problem. He literally, physically returns to rapture us. How is this a second coming only passage? No time differential is mentioned (again).

3:19-21 A general declaration that God will someday send Jesus back to earth. Once again, no distinction is given here of the rapture from the second coming; therefore, once again, this passage does not help your case.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 “Coming” = parousia. “saints” = hagios, and can refer to EITHER believers OR angels. Since there are no other passages that say Jesus is coming with believers, that do not use “hagios”, the meaning must be determined from other passages. We do have direct evidence of Christ returning with His angels, but not with believers. Again, no help for your assertion…

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 This passage presents exactly the pre-wrath view: the saints endure tribulation (i.e. the GT, “thlipsis”, the same word Jesus used) vs. 6, the second coming occurs, in which Christ is revealed with His angels, (cf Mt 24:31) vs. 7, the Day of the Lord begins vs. 8-10. You believe this passage is a reference to the end times (which it is), but conveniently ignore vs. 4-5 that show believers waiting patiently for Him to arrive through persecutions and tribulations. More evidence that we will endure the GT.

2:8 Once again coming = “parousia”, the same word you claimed was used of a Rapture passage in Mt 24. Here again, the grammar shows no distinction.

1 Peter 4:12-13 Once again, you contradict yourself. Believers are shown to go through a fiery trial (the GT) vs. 12, until He is revealed (apokalupsis) vs. 13, the same word used in connection with the rapture. Again the two are linked, with temporal separation shown.

2 Peter 3:1-14 Again, the promise of His coming (parousia, vs. 4), then the Day of the Lord (vs. 10), and believers are looking and awaiting that day (vs. 12). According to you, we will all be gone some time before this, so why look for the day? The scriptures say His coming entails the Day of the Lord, and Mt 24 says His coming entails the rapture. Once again you are shown to be in error.

Jude 1:14-15 See above notes on I Thess 3:13. Since “hagios” can mean either believers or angels, we must use other texts. Again, the direct references only show angels coming with Him, and only angels administering His judgment. Therefore, it parallels Mt 24, which earlier you said was a rapture reference. Hmmmm…

Revelation 4-19 I assume by listing 15 chapters, you mean to appeal to the, “the word church isn’t there” argument. This is a bogus argument. #1-the word church is used in chapter 20 or 21 either, but I doubt you would exclude her from those. #2-as discussed earlier, the Second coming/Day of the Lord cannot occur until after the 6th seal. Being this is the case, and the church will be here until the sixth seal that marks His return, we should expect to see the rapture in Rev., and we do, ch 7:9-17. Notice: vs. 14, these came out of Great Tribulation, exactly where the rest of the scriptures place the rapture, after tribulation (5th seal) and before the DotL judgements begin (trumpets and vials).


2nd half tally: 20 passages, 5 from the OT and beg the question as the rapture was not revealed, 4 show no temporal separation that you suggest, 2 use ambiguous language and must interpreted in light of other passages, the other passages show you to be wrong, and 9 which use words/phrases that are used in both rapture and second coming passage, and hence show no distinction.

Final score 46 passages. Not a single verse that shows the rapture and second coming to be 7 years apart. In fact, the evidence from all of these scriptures shows the same flow of events:
1) beginning of 70th week
2) the A o D
3) the Great Tribulation
4) the triple sign in the heavens
5) Christ’s second coming, beginning with the rapture
6) The Day of the lord

Exactly what pre-wrath says it should be.

Now, I’ve been most generous and answered you point-by-point. Are you going to again use generalizations and ignore my points, or are you willing to discuss, point-by-point?