In Christ

That's not ture. We place ourselves in groups all of the time. Are you a Baptist?

Who has said they believe Calvin? Maybe you should ask it another way.

Good verse. What does all mean?

not really.

Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

 

Yes, I am a Baptist. And I would call myself a Bible believer. As far as Calvinism or Arminianism, I agree with some things, and disagree with some things from both. I believe that once a person is saved they cannot lose their salvation as Calvinism teaches. But I believe man has free will and that any man can trust Christ for salvation as Arminianism teaches.

But I really do not spend much time at all studying the writings of men. I do consult commentaries at times if a passage is difficult. But more often I try to study the Bible and let it explain itself.

And how does Isaiah 53:12 explain Titus 2:11?

And how do you explain Isa 53:6?

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Calvinism teaches Jesus only died for the elect, while Isa 53:6 teaches Jesus died for the iniquities of all men.

 

That is completely false. I have never said Jesus made an offer He could not keep. It is you dispensationalists who have done that saying Jesus Christ made an offer of an earthly Messianic kingdom he could not keep. That is blasphemy.

You are showing your ignorance of the Godhead for the umpteenth time. There cannot be disunity or disharmony within the Godhead. Again to suggest such is blasphemy.

Think about it. Man is always accountable God.

 

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten:

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

 

You simply don't understand Scripture. If Jesus Christ died for all according to your understanding of all; all would be saved.

 

Your doctrine is the one making the accusation against Scripture/God, not me.

Evidently, you don't understand what you believe.

Accountable for what, not being "chosen" by God???

I can't be accountable unless I have a "CHOICE" between "TWO" options.

 

hummm So you are in a group. Does this mean you follow John the Baptist?

well.... It is my guess at this point that you really don't believe as Calvinist on this.

Man has a will, but just not free.

You talked about Rice before. You mean you never read his books?

Well, that is good. But commentaries are not bad, if you don't allow them to over rule scripture. Church history is not bad, where as many Baptist say it is not needed. They are died wrong.

Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

Who are the sheep? Who are goats? Look in John and he will tell you more about this.

yes..

no...it says all WE. Who are the we?

 

the rest of the verse...

One cannot buy salvation. Jesus paid it all.

 

Well, it's not speaking of laundry detergent. :laugh:

Sorry, but I couldn't pass that opportunity by. I understand what you are getting at, I didn't include the next verse did I? Well, let's look at it.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Now, I am pretty sure I know what you will argue. That is why I highlighted "us" in verses 12 and 14. You are going to say "all men" in verse 11 only applies to the saved persons mentioned in verses 12 and 14. And I would agree that "us" in verses 12 and 14 could very well be speaking of saved individuals only (the elect).

But there is a problem with that. To believe that you would have to believe that the Holy Spirit was very careless to say "all men" in verse 11. I mean, shouldn't the Holy Spirit have said "us" in verse 11 as well?

Wouldn't that have made the meaning absolutely clear without controversy?

Couldn't the Holy Spirit have said, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to us"?

So, you don't think the Holy Spirit made a careless mistake do you?

I don't. I think verse 11 says "all men" because it means exactly that, that the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

Now, that does not give me a problem at all. If the Holy Spirit beckons and calls a man to salvation, he can willingly accept it or reject it. In fact, I have shown many verses that show a man can accept or reject the offer of salvation.

But you believe this grace is irresistable. So, this is a problem for you. Because if verse 11 means all men (as it clearly says), then all men would be saved. But even you know this is not true.

Of course, if a man can reject God's grace, then there is no conflict with the scriptures, and no conflict with verses 12-14 either.

Like I said, if you can get past the man-made doctrine of irresistable grace then all the scriptures will make perfect sense and you will not find it necessary to explain them away when they contradict you.

 

You got me there.

ok

That's the next verse...

Well, I wasn't going to say this, but this is very true.

Nope...it is talking about believers.

Not careless, but ordained.

No...because then it would change the meaning

I have no problem with the way it is worded now. Why should it be changed?

yes he could have

no

good Now we are getting somewhere

right so far..

agreed

good

willingly? Yes indeed. His will demands that he says NO. Always

no you have not. you have shown many verses where the gospel is offered to ALL mankind.

indeed I do.

hummm why is that?

no it does not. How did you get that idea?

even me? Wow...little ol me?

what do you mean "can reject"? Man does reject.

What makes you think it is "man-made"?

Do you not think that if I say a contradict I would change my views?

Do you not think I feel scripture makes perfect sense under Calvinism?

Wait....if you don't follow John the Baptist....and you are a Baptist....

then...maybe....just maybe....i mean give this some thought...

ok...maybe it is true that being a Calvinist...does not mean I follow john Calvin.

maybe.....just think about it.

 

Old Regular said:

I understand the scriptures.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Verse 1 says that if "any man" sin they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. And verse 2 makes the meaning unmistakable, because John shows Jesus is not just the propitiation for the sins of those he is addressing, but for the sins "of the whole world"

It is your doctrine that forces you to pervert the simple and staightworward meaning of these verses. It is Calvinism that will argue "all men" in Titus 2:11 does not really mean all men, but really only means the elect.

It is almost as if you are arguing that the Holy Spirit is clumsy and careless and says things that can be misunderstood and cause controversy.

Couldn't the Holy Spirit have said "the elect" in verse 1 instead of "any man"?
And couldn't the Holy Spirit have said "the sins of the elect" in vs 2?

When are you going to realize that you approach scripture with a pre-conceived idea in your mind. When the verse contradicts your belief, then you attempt to change the clear and straightforward meaning.

Try this. Just pretend. For one minute pretend that grace is not irresistable. Pretend that a man can resist the Holy Spirit and reject the gospel. Pretend that Jesus died for all men, but that a man must accept this free gift of his own free will.

Just pretend. Now, read all these scriptures and see if they make sense just as they are written.

 

Think what you want Amy, the passage still ends the same way...

For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

"Many" can mean "all" and I will show you from scripture an example of this.

Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

This parable shows many things. First, it shows a man can resist the will of God. God bid the Jews to the wedding of his son, but they refused to come. He sent again, but they were too busy with the affairs of the world to be bothered (parable of the sower). They also killed the servants God had sent (the prophets).

So God told his servants to go out into the highways and call as many as they could find (the Gentiles). And notice it says they gathered "ALL".

So here is a case where they gathered "all" they could find, but are referred to as "many" at the end of the parable. The point is, they made the attempt to gather every possible person they could. This shows salvation is offered to all.

But one man who was bidden came without a wedding garment. This man did not have the garment of righteousness, he was not saved. And there are those who come to church and participate, but who have never put their trust in Christ. This man was cast out.

So many (which in this parable is all) are called, but few are chosen.

 

who is.... tried in the fire?

Believers or non-believers?

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in Whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Who is burned by fire?

Believers or non-believers?

If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.