In the Cross, Did God Reconcile ALL Or Just The saved Peoples?

perch:

I dont think you understand your own question,nor this subject matter..

 

perch:

They will not believe because they are not of Christ Sheep Jn 10:26

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And since Christ died for the Sheep, then those who do not believe, Christ did not die for, so being in a condemned state [for their sins], they cannot and will not believe..

 

You must understand the historical context to understand the intent. There are two folds of sheep. Israel is the first fold and the Gentiles are the second. Most scholars in both camps would agree with this.

Now, of the first fold, Israel, there are a remnant who have been hand selected by God to be given to Christ and trained to be the foundation for the church and take the message of redemption to the world. The rest of Israel is being temporarily hardened (John 12:39). That is why they can't believe. They are being "cut off" from the gospel (Rom 11; Mk 4; Matt 13). So, its not because they are born "totally depraved" that they can't believe and come to Christ, its that they have been blinded from the truth. The other flock which is brought in through faith in the message brought to them by the appointed Jewish apostles will LISTEN. (Acts 28:28)

 

Thanks for affirming that even Calvinists affirm the need for belief, Skandelon! Some who are not Calvinists seem to think that Calvinism somehow bypasses belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Iconoclast....

You are 100% correct.

Thats exactly correct.

Correct.

And the reason is because I find it utterly useless to share with you and Luke, because I believe that both of you have been so "calvinized" that you no longer have the ability to discern truth from the scriptures. If you did have proper scriptural discernmet, you would understand the scriptures that prove Calvin wrong, and you would develop an open mind regarding truth that comes from the scriptures, and non/Cal scholors.

As it is now, you...and others, flippantly and arrogantly disregard them as if they were a pack of idiots...when it truth they offer you great wisdom and scriptural truth that *could* help you greatly. (you can lead a horse to water, but you cant..etc etc)

I am not worried at all regarding where I stand...although I appreciate your concern...but I do worry about you and some others.

Seriously

But I will be content with "casting seeds" and letting God take it from their.

 

We basically agree. I would disagree who the two fold of sheep are but in the end God will accomplish his purpose through Christ and the two fold of sheep becoming one flock through which the rest of mankind will seek.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Acts 15:17 says the same: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

It is the remnant being called presently and that have the scales of blindness removed so they can believe. This is accomplished by the faith of Christ. They are no longer perishing for they are no longer blind.

The purpose of God being: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

 

AiC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

 

Yes, we do. But Skandelon believes that unregenerate man somehow generates faith in himself when hearing the word and in an unregenerate state can turn to God and repent of sin and believe.

That is not the same kind of faith that we believe in.

 

Define "believe."

 

The condition is on God. It's His grace. You put the condition on man. It's his choice.

Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. It's the same with the new man.

 

That's the inescapable conclusion of any noncalvinistic thought. In fact, man doesn't need to be regenerated, because he is not completely ruined. He just needs a little repair.

 

skan:

He was speaking of those of His Present Ministry who were not believing, it was because they were condemned in their sins, they had not substitute, so quite naturally they must stand alone and condemned.

But those who Christ died for, even while they are in unbelief and enemies by nature, they are not condemned, they are reconciled to God, they are in His Favor. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now you explain how one can be reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and at the same time be Legally condemned by God !

 

It's called "provisional atonement" and its consistent with every example of biblical atonement we have throughout scripture. It is atonement that is provided for everyone, but not everyone will accept it.

The snake lifted on the pole in the desert is a good example. It was provided for everyone individual, but only those who looked upon the snake after being bitten would be healed. Thus the means of being saved (atonement) was provided for every person, while every person may not have utilized the provision.

Another example might be if you owed a fine you couldn't afford to pay for a crime you were convicted of and the judge was about to send you to prison when his son stepped forward with the money paying the fine in full. Now, at this point in time your debt is paid in full. But the judge says to you, "Your debt has been paid even though you couldn't have paid it, so all I ask of you is to repent of your crime and thank my son for his gift and you will be free." The provision has been made but the judge requires something of you. You were unable to pay the fine, but there is no reason you can't own up to your mistake and thank the one who paid your debt. You must repent and be thankful to take advantage of the provision. If you refused in your pride and stubbornness the judge can send you away to prison, not because of the original debt, but because of your unwillingness to submit to the terms of the provision. Understand?

 

skan:

Are you going to show us how some can be reconciled to God, not almost reconciled, but reconciled to God by the death of His Son, and be under Legal condemnation at the same time.

The verse says nothing about provisional reconciliation or atonement but actual reconciliation.

The word reconciled is in the past tense and passive voice, its a finished done deal. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now do you deny this actual reconciliation that took place while these sinners were enemies ?

 

Yeah, we believe the guy has to grunt a moan and push as if making a bowel movement and eventually faith will come forth. :laugh:

Keep working at it Luke, one day you might actually correctly represent us.

You guys make this way too complicated. The truth of God is "CLEARLY SEEN" and "UNDERSTOOD." Men are not born blind to it, as your system presumes, otherwise they would have the perfect excuse. They only become blind AFTER to know the truth, understand the truth, and rebel against the truth. Your system says that can't even know the truth or the spiritual things of God unless first regenerated.

Jesus rebuked his followers and others for their lack of faith. Should he have rebuked himself for not giving it to them?

 

Even Cals believe that men must fulfill the condition of faith in order to be saved. Whether effectually produced through the work of regeneration or not, it is still a condition of the man. You can say you believe in unconditional election and that men will be regenerated unconditionally, but to be consistent you cannot claim that salvation is unconditional.

I agree.

 

Attacking straw-men again are we? Here are the words of Arminus himself and any objective reader can see that he doesn't represent mankind in the way you have suggested:

"For Arminius (and most of his followers), a person must be graced by the Spirit of God in the overcoming of the depraved nature so that the person may be freed to believe in Christ Jesus. If such is accomplished and not resisted, then the person is justified and regenerated. But sinners must be enabled by the Spirit of God because they are totally and utterly depraved, captured and enslaved by sin, and completely undone." -William Birch

The only clarification or specification I add to the historically Arminian view is that God's divine grace works in and through his appointed means alone. That is that the gospel, a work of the Holy Spirit, the very words of God, is the means through which God overcomes the natural state of man's depravity to make appeal for them to be reconciled. The suggestion of Calvinists that this powerful Gospel is just not a significant enough a work of God to bring understanding and light to darkness is biblically unfounded. God's word does not return void.

 

In one thing you are consistent: no matter what is written or by whom, you will misconstrue it. Here it is summed up: The natural man has the power to save himself, but not without help.

So far from rebutting my description of the noncalvinist position, it anchors it.

 

Really? What did Adam believe before he had breath?

 

Skandy, I'll ask you one more time before I spank you soundly and put you to bed on this topic.