in the NIV why is Jesus going to HELL ( PIT) ?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by bob walker, Aug 9, 2001.

  1. bob walker

    bob walker
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    this is the "new Bible" translation
    look at this the "Morning star" was cast out of heaven and cast to the earth.

    Isaiah 14:11-13 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

    All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
    12
    How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
    13
    You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
    14
    I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
    15
    But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. (HELL in the KJV )
    Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
    17
    the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?"

    now who is the "Mornind star"? look at this

    Revelation 22:15-17 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

    Jesus is the "Morning star" of the NIV Bible
    so he was cast out of heaven. The KJV says lucifer was cast out of heaven. so who is right? westcott and hort were 2 occultists who translated the vatican catholic manuscripts to form the basis of the NIV.
    funny but the scofield reference Bible uses the work of westcott and hort to correct the errors of the KJV. read the preface of scofield reference bible and see. write me for more info. in Christ bob
    :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
  2. Kiffin

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    Actually, the NIV translation is not incorrect In Isaiah 14 if one goes into the Hebrew which means "light bearer" or "shining one". The KJV depended heavily upon the Latin Vulgate for it's translation, though I don't have a major problem with the KJV or NKJV's translation either. There is no interpretation problem since Satan is an angel of light that attempts to imitate Christ the true light.

    Actually Isaiah 14 is only referring to Satan in the secondary sense since it is primarily referring to the king of Babylon. There are some Bible students however that think Isaiah 14 is referring only to the King of Babylon and not to Lucifer's fall and that this applies to Satan comes from the writings of the Church Fathers. Of course that is another debate :eek:
     
  3. bob walker

    bob walker
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    so maybe they should have said light bearer and not use a name reserved for Christ.
    maybe it does not matter to you, but it sure matters to me. read it all, the morning star in the NIV is cast to the earth and the king of tyre never tried to overthrow God in his throne in heaven. so much for that.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. bob walker

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  5. Pastor Larry

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    Bob,

    If you read the context, it is a taunt addressed to the King of Babylon (v. 4). Some people believe that Satan is personified in the King of Babylon; others do not.

    However, your method of Bible study is inadequate. Just because two people are called the same thing 800 years apart does not mean they are the same person. In the context of Isa 14 it is clear that Christ is not being talked about.

    The words is helel meaning "shining one, epith of king of Babylon, ... i.e., star of the morning. (Cf. As. mustilil, epith. of (Venus as) morning-star IIIR 57 60 Opp JAS 1871, 448, SCHR 8K 1874 337 COT ad loc.)" (BDB p. 237). The point is that they translate the word "morning star" because that is what it means, not because they are trying to identify the person as Christ.

    You need to study the context and the meaning of the word and then the problem goes away.
     
  6. bob walker

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    I think I can understand english fairly well
    without the "ORIGINAL HEBREW" thank you.
    and the context is he was thrown out of HEAVEN!!! oh yes the NIV translators removed
    sodomite to give us a greater understanding
    and assist the homosexual community unbderstand God right? [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think I can understand english fairly well without the "ORIGINAL HEBREW" thank you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Apparently not since you missed it. The whole basis of your argument lies on denying the language in which Isaiah wrote what he wrote.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and the context is he was thrown out of HEAVEN!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes you are right. However, "he" is not Christ. Christ was not thrown out of heaven and thus you are mistaken to presume that it refers to Christ.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>oh yes the NIV translators removed
    sodomite to give us a greater understanding
    and assist the homosexual community unbderstand God right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I thought there was a thread addressed to this. Silly me ...
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bob walker:
    I think I can understand english fairly well
    without the "ORIGINAL HEBREW" thank you. [​IMG] [​IMG]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Trust you say that tongue-in-cheek, Bob.

    This is one of the greatest dangers of the "only" movement - that understanding a limited translation of God's Word into a receptor language that is vastly different than the inspired Hebrew and Greek is "good enough".

    We are seeing the "watering down" of theology because of the great number of untrained and uneducated preachers - with a couple years of English Bible - flooding our churches with half-truths and mis-interpretations.

    Even without seminary, taking time to study the original languages will put you light years ahead of just knowing any receptor language. Let me encourage you and others to STUDY these and you will uncover truths and nuances and insights beyond your imagination!
     
  9. bob walker

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    I agree with you the original languages are great to study. but whose lexicon will you use? kittels lexicon? he was a nazi who went to prison for war crimes and was convicted of such at the nuremberg trials. I will pass
    or how about Thayers lexicon? he was a unitarian. they basically believe Jesus was a good teacher and that is all he was like budda or mohammed. I could go on and on.
    westcott and hort were into necromancy (communicating with the dead) so do we use their material? I trust the KJV translators as the BELIEVED IT WAS GOD'S WORD. I do also like the webster's translation and the geneva Bible and the peschitta all from the RECEIVED TEXT. Why go back to rome for your new modern Bible? I will pass on rome.
    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    Bob,

    Does the KJV make Christ, the Lion of Judah, equal to Satan because Satan is the roaring lion seeking whom he may devour? It would seem so on the basis of your argument here.
     
  11. Scott J

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bob walker:
    Why go back to rome for your new modern Bible? I will pass on rome.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Will you indeed? Ask yourself a few questions: Who was Erasmus? What did he believe? If he believed that RCC doctrines were wrong why did he stay with the church? Luther and others didn't. Who were the KJV translators? What did they believe? How did the act? Why did Baptists and other dissenters flee England during the 1600's and 1700's? What persecution were they fleeing? Who were their persecutors?

    None of these answers necessarily make the KJV a bad translation. However, if you would have complete separation from the RCC and any church that accepts some of the most damning Catholic theology then you must reject the TR and KJV.

    BTW, did you know that Erasmus did not have the last leaf of Revelation in Greek? Did you know that he back translated from a late copy of the Latin Vulgate (the RCC Bible) into Greek? Did you know that the phrase "book of life" in vs. 19 does not have Greek support? It is uniquely Latin and should be "tree of life." Do you realize that "book" coupled with the following phrase "and out of the holy city" can be used to support the RCC claim that they determine who goes to heaven? (their holy city is Rome of course) In that the "tree of life" cannot be humanized, can you see that the proper phrase does not support their false doctrine?

    You are digging your own hole. You cannot have it both ways. Either the same rules apply to all versions or your rules are not valid for any version. If bad theology automatically taints scholarship then by your own definition the TR and KJV are corrupt.
     
  12. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott J:
    Who was Erasmus? What did he believe? If he believed that RCC doctrines were wrong why did he stay with the church?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who was he? Erasmus was probably the greatest renaissance scholar and bears the title, "Prince Of The Humanists." He lived from 1466-1536.

    What did he believe? From 1509-1514 he lectured at the University of Cambridge, England which was a center of renaissance thought. While at Cambridge he promoted the "new learning" later called Protestantism. One of his students was a young man named William Tyndale.

    He published his Greek NT in 1516, which openly defied the RCC and its prefered text.

    From 1516-1521 he lectured at the University of Louvain, in the Netherlands, another center of Protestant activity.

    In 1535 he returned to Basel and died amoungst his Protestant friends in 1536. He is buried in the Protestant cemetary.

    Many of his writings exposed the ignorance, superstition, and unscriptural beliefs and practices of the RCC.

    If he believed that RCC doctrines were wrong why did he stay with the church? He didn't! He exposed the RCC errors and remained with his Protestant friends until his death!
     
  13. John Wells

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    Bob,

    You ought to listen to these guys. They know what they're talking about. They have done such a good job rebuking you, I shall not attempt to get in my two cents worth.
     
  14. bob walker

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    let me get this straight in the NIV Jesus in rev 22 says he is the MORNING STAR and in Isaiah 14 it says the MORNING STAR (Jesus) is cast out of heaven. the KJV says lucifer fell from heaven and the NIV says Jesus fell from heaven and you say I should listen to you? vatican manuscripts translated by occultists and I should use them? well yes I do use them everytime I need kindling for my BBQ Grill...what does the Bible say ever learning ... [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. Chris Temple

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    Bob:

    In the AV both Jesus and Ezekiel are called son of man :

    Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

    Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

    Does that mean that Ezekiel is the Messiah??

    :confused: :confused:
     
  16. John Wells

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    bob walker said, "vatican manuscripts translated by occultists and I should use them?"

    Bob, you've got some respectable KJVonlyers around here who frown on such tactics. If you want to argue a case against a translation's worthiness, do so exegetically without the childish name calling.
     
  17. Scott J

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:

    If he believed that RCC doctrines were wrong why did he stay with the church? He didn't! He exposed the RCC errors and remained with his Protestant friends until his death!
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I do not question his greatness as a scholar nor that Protestants were more receptive to his work than Catholics. This was exactly my point. His scholarship has been validated by those who differed with his theology. That said, his having been the places you mention or thought of in the ways you cite does not demonstrate that he foresook Catholicism.

    If you have any documentation detailing his opposition to any Catholic doctrine, I would be interested in seeing it. Or otherwise, I would be interested in any direct support he may have made of Protestantism. His opposition to corruption does not constitute disagreement with principles.

    Here is a link to an article with extensive quotes which attempts to prove the opposite.
    http://kjvonlyism.tripod.com/doug/erasmus.htm

    For those who aren't interested in the whole article, here are some samples.

    "Erasmus wrote, "Christ I know; Luther I know not. The Roman Church I know, and death will not part me from it till the Church departs from Christ" (p. 261). Again, "I have sought to save the dignity of the Roman Pontiff, the honour of Catholic theology, and the welfare of Christendom" "

    "The Lutherans alternately courted me and menaced me. For all this, I did not move a finger's breadth from the teaching of the Roman Church. "

    "The Pope's authority as Christ's Vicar must be upheld."


    Many such quotes are listed with references cited. If they are false or quoted out of context, it should be easy enough to prove.

    [ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Scott J ]
     
  18. DocCas

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    I have made similar statement, prior to my conversion. His statements must be placed in the context of the time frame involved. When did he make such statements, and did he ever publish other statements to the contrary? If you will read his own writings, especially the later ones, you will note that he openly attacked the corruption and heresy of Rome. Not to mention he is still buried in the Protestant cemetary. :D
     
  19. Scott J

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    I have made similar statement, prior to my conversion. His statements must be placed in the context of the time frame involved. When did he make such statements, and did he ever publish other statements to the contrary? If you will read his own writings, especially the later ones, you will note that he openly attacked the corruption and heresy of Rome.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I would be glad to do a little research which will benefit me. Can you give some resources?

    But also, can you list here some Catholic doctrines that he recanted on? Especially, I would be interested to know if he ever embraced salvation by grace alone.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Not to mention he is still buried in the Protestant cemetary. :D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I recognize that there is some significance in the fact of where he was buried however it does not prove conversion unless coupled with a profession of faith.

    I know that the context of the times in which he lived are important. It is often difficult in our times for RCC's to leave the church. There can be no doubt that the difficulties were multiplied many times over during the Reformation. However, these difficulties make the dividing line even more clear. Either he departed from the church or he didn't, I doubt that either the Protestants or Catholics were very forgiving of fence straddling.

    [ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Scott J ]
     
  20. Dr. Bob

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
    . . you've got some respectable KJVonlyers around here . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now THAT is an oxymoron! :eek:

    (Just pulling your chain friend! I really do appreciate your attempts at raising the bar on discussions and debate. God bless!) :cool:
     

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