Inerrant application of the Scriptures?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Apr 7, 2003.

  1. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    I think it is safe to say as Fundamental Baptists
    the core of our "Fundamentalism" is the inerrancy of Scriptures.

    As an IFB, the core problem I see in many Fundamental Baptist Churches is not that we believe our Scriptures to be inerrant - it is that we believe our application of those Scriptures to be inerrant as well.

    We cannot stand people who apply the scriptures
    differently then we do.

    Take II Timothy 2:9-10(NIV) as an example:
    "I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God."

    Application #1:
    dress modestly - means women should not wear pants and only wear dresses that come down
    to their ankles. Also these dresses must come right up to the womens neck. The sleaves should come down to the hands.

    Women should not have braided hair - in fact women should not go to beauticians.

    Women should not wear any jewelrey or clothes should not buy dresses from anywhere except discount clothing stores.

    Application #2:
    dress modestly - means women should not wear pants and only wear dresses that come down just below their knees. Sleaves must come down to at least the middle upper arm. Dress Colars must come within 1 inch of the base of the neck.

    Women should not cake makeup on or wear strong perfumes. Braiding and hair coloring is ok in moderation.

    Women may shop at any discount store AND Sears and JCPenny but not Saxs Fifth Avenue.(ha ha - had to add a funny)


    Application #3
    dress modestly - means women may wear pants as long as they are not "poured" into them. As with pants, dresses should be not be skin tight and dresses lengths should come to the knee.

    Women should not look like Prostitutes in whatever culture they live.

    If you want to gob makeup on your face and look like a clown - go ahead.

    Go ahead and shop wherever you want- just make
    sure you are giving to the Lord's Work and helping others with what God has given you.

    There could be tons of variations on the applications I gave you.

    The problem is when someone adheres to application #1 and he looks down on his brother
    who chooses application #2 or when those who adhere to application #2 look down on those who adhere to application #3.

    Romans 14:4-6(NIV)
    "4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

    Just some thoughts

    IFBReformer
     
  2. Johnv

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    I don't think there's inerrant application. There's only interpretive application. Part of it is disagreement over what the bible means in certain areas (ie, alcohol and women working, just for starters).

    Even with the same interpretation, application may vary. For example, if women aren't allowed to wear pants, some may say "yes" to sirts, while others say "no" to anything but ankle length dresses.

    No two churches, not even two Baptist churches of the same denomination, will have the exact same interpretation of the whole Bible.
     
  3. Helen

    Helen
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    Aaaiiieeeee! This is starting all over again?

    :( [​IMG]
     
  4. rlvaughn

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    You forgot to mention those who adhere to application #3 and look down on those who adhere to application #1.
     
  5. Daniel David

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    Is it really a question of application there? I think you are describing three different interpretations. We all live and act according to our interpretation.

    Remember, theology dictates morality, always.
     
  6. Johnv

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    Oops! Did we beat this horse to a pulp already? I musta missed tha beating. Sorry... :eek:
     
  7. Deekay

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    This is probably the single greatest challenge that we as Christians face in our day-to-day lives. There is no foolproof way to overcome the tendency to invest our interpretations with the same authority of Scripture itself. All we can do is study the Bible carefully (without a preset agenda), and then submit our thoughts about it to God, so that He may shape and direct them. Humility is perhaps the biggest key here. Just because I feel strongly about a certain interpretation does not make it true. Scripture is inerrant; my heart and mind are not.
     
  8. IfbReformer

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    You forgot to mention those who adhere to application #3 and look down on those who adhere to application #1. </font>[/QUOTE]rlvaughn,
    I agree completely with you. It goes both ways. But honestly in the IFB churches I have seen 90% percent of the time it is the person with the more stricter standard looking down on the person with the less strict standard.

    IFBReformer

    [ April 07, 2003, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]
     
  9. rlvaughn

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    IFBReformer, yes I have also seen it go that way more than the other (though I'd say more like 65/35 in my experience). But I've seen the looks and heard the sarcastic comments & snide remarks of the no. 3's when they see a woman with long hair and no makeup in a long dress. Just didn't want them to get a "bye." :D
     
  10. Headcoveredlady

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    IFB Reformer,
    I am not sure what judging someone elses servant has to do with 1 Timothy 2, or whether or not one is a vegetarian.

    I am curious how you reconcile 2 Peter 1:20,"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION?," with what you have said?

    And how do you reconcile the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 5 in particular verses 12-13, "For what have I to do to JUDGE them that are also without? DO YE NOT JUDGE THEM THAT ARE WITHIN? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away the wicked from among yourselves."

    [ April 07, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Headcoveredlady ]
     
  11. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    Headcoveredlady,

    Thanks for the response. You have pointed out some
    excellant passages and I would be happy to answer your questions.

    What does judging someone else's servant have to do with I Timothy 2 - everthing. Heres how:

    Romans 14:1(NIV)
    "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters."

    The entire context of Romans 14 is how Christian brothers are to handle "disputable matters". Paul gives two examples, one of those who did not eat meat and the other of those who regard certain days as holy and others who regard all days alike. But those are examples to illustrate the point of how to handle disputable matters.

    Romans 14 is all but ignored in most IFB churches. I am thankful that the IFB church
    I attend not only addressed it - the Pastor preached an entire series on it for several weeks.

    So how do disputable matters relate to I Timothy 2? Paul tells women to dress modestly - but does he answer how long a women's dress must be to be considered modest? Does he answer if her sleaves should come down to her wrist or elbow?

    There is no argument that a women should dress modest -the "disputable matter" is the exact parameters of how you define "modest".

    Context is important here. The Apostle is not talking about how we apply the scripture as believers, he is taking about how the scriptures came about. The Prophets did not write God's Word by their own interpretation, but they spoke and wrote and they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    For instance, many people question Paul's writings when it comes to women, and how he forbids women from usurping authority over men in the church. They say -this was his own opinion - but II Peter tells us he was moved by the Holy Ghost.

    II Peter 1:20-21(KJV)
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    The NIV helps to clearify this verse:

    II Peter 1:20-21(NIV)
    "20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

    Again, context is very important. I have learned two important concepts when it comes to my beliefs and convictions - The first is one my father taught me all growing up - "Book, Chapter, Verse". When someone tells me the Bible teaches something I want to know where it is. Then after they give me the "Book, Chapter and Verse" the second rule applies. "Context, Context, Context".

    I Corinthians 5:9-13(NIV)
    "9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
    12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.""

    In I Corinthians 5 when Paul writes "Are you not to judge those inside" he not speaking about judging your brother on disputable matters. In fact he says just the opposite when it comes to disputable matters when he wrote in Romans 14:10 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat." He is speaking of church discipline - when a brother in the church is living in outward, defiant sin such as adultery or drunkeness(these are clearly not disputable matters) we are to expel him from the church.

    One little note I will add at the end here:

    Catholic Theologians have used II Peter 1 for years to say exactly what you are saying. That we cannot privately interpret the scriptures for ourselves.

    They say there must be one authority for interpretation of Scripture and that is the Catholic Church.

    Baptists have historically rejected this view. They have believed it is the right and freedom of every believer and groups of believers to interpret the scriptures as they feel the leading of the Holy Spirit.

    That is why no two Christians see things the same in in every place in the scriptures.

    Thats what a church is for -it is an assembly of like-minded(interpreting the scriptures the same) believers joined in a common bond.

    Something to ponder.

    Once again thanks for the questions, I hope I was able to help you on these passages.

    IFBReformer

    [ April 08, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: IfbReformer ]
     
  12. donnA

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    I haven't actually seen this, can you point that out. What I do remember is repeadtly being bashed for not being a #1. Never objected to anyone being a #1.

    We just went over this subject 2 weeks ago, does anyone think we need to do this again?
    Time to move on and discuss something more profitable then the constant arguing over dresses.
     
  13. IfbReformer

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    I haven't actually seen this, can you point that out. What I do remember is repeadtly being bashed for not being a #1. Never objected to anyone being a #1.

    We just went over this subject 2 weeks ago, does anyone think we need to do this again?
    Time to move on and discuss something more profitable then the constant arguing over dresses.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I did not see that thread. But really there is no hurt in discussing the same topics. Maybe there are new people in the forum.

    I don't mean this in any way to mean at all or to take a bad tone at all - but if you don't want to discuss something that is similar or the same as something you recently discussed then don't join the discussion.

    Just a thought

    IFBReformer
     
  14. rlvaughn

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    It is mentioned about foru or five posts above.
     
  15. donnA

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    If you'd seen the last 5 times it was discussed you wouldn't say that. And if I do stay away then only one view is discussed or represented, not going to let scripture be misused that way.

    No you misunderstand me I think. I asked where this is at, I ahven't seen this done here yet, but have seen the opposite.
    As in, on this forum I have not seen anyone who is a #3
    look down on or bash those who are a #1 just becasue they are of the #1 opinion, but only for trying to enforce their opinions on others. And to the contrary, #3's ahve been told how evil tehy are and disobedient to God they are.
     
  16. rlvaughn

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    Kate, my answer was not in reference to anyone in this forum, and I did not understand IFB's initial post to be addressing this forum, but rather life in the world and in the churches. If he meant differently, he can clarify. So I am speaking as in: sitting with a church group in a restaurant and the Baptist ladies look at the Pentecostals sitting a few tables over and make remarks about how ridiculous they look in their long hair and dresses, or insinuate that they must think they are better than everyone else to always go out in public looking like that, etc. The Pentecostal ladies may also be sitting over there thinking bad things about the Baptist ladies, but since I'm sitting in the "Baptist area," I know what they are saying. If you've been blessed to never had such an experience or been in such a position, then just be thankful.

    P. S. - it's not just Pentecostals, that's just one example.
     
  17. donnA

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    We have a lot of penetcostals, Amish, Mennonites in our area, no one I've heard of puts them down for wearing dresses, as a matter of fact, every woman I know wears dresses, so whats the purpose of making fun of someone? Not just penetcostal women have long hair, a number of women in my church do, as I do also. I guess we tend to respect people even if we don't believe the saemthings.
     

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