Infant Baptism: Doctrinal error? Who should we ask?

Agnus_Dei · Jun 22, 2007

Eliyahu said:

The other day I met a Catholic woman and showed the Romans, she was surprised to read ch 3 of Romans since she never read any portion of the Bible, neither OT, nor NT, nor even Gospel, nor Romans ever before. This is how RCC have kept their children in the darkness.
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…and during my “door knocking” days I would come across more Methodists and other fractions of denominations that couldn’t answer a simple question like: “How do you know you’re going to heaven…?” they’d stand there with dumbfounded looks.

Fact is there are pew warmers in every denomination. Not every Church goer is steeped in Theological matters; even as simple as knowing if you’re saved. My wife’s grandfather refused to go to Church b/c he believed it was nothing more than a “social club”, and sadly most are. This is why Christ gave the Church the Sacraments so that we may know we are saved. So really you're point is mute...
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Eliyahu · Jun 22, 2007

Agnus_Dei said:

…and during my “door knocking” days I would come across more Methodists and other fractions of denominations that couldn’t answer a simple question like: “How do you know you’re going to heaven…?” they’d stand there with dumbfounded looks.

Fact is there are pew warmers in every denomination. Not every Church goer is steeped in Theological matters; even as simple as knowing if you’re saved. My wife’s grandfather refused to go to Church b/c he believed it was nothing more than a “social club”, and sadly most are. This is why Christ gave the Church the Sacraments so that we may know we are saved. So really you're point is mute...
-
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You must have the conviction about your own salvation:
1 John 5:
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Do you know that you have the eternal life? on what basis?

2 Cor 13:

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Agnus!

Read the Bible! Don't keep being brain washed by the Broadway religion of RCC!

Chemnitz · Jun 22, 2007

I love how all these people presume to know what is in the heart of a child.

Refuse to give them a means of grace because they can't verbally repent, oh please. Who made you all god and able to tell who can't repent and who can?

Eliyahu · Jun 22, 2007

They are mostly the hypocrites who bring the arguments with Love and Love, to disobey the commandmenst of God. No baptism means no Love to their eyes.

Repent ye and be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Chemnitz · Jun 22, 2007

Eliyahu said:

They are mostly the hypocrites who bring the arguments with Love and Love, to disobey the commandmenst of God. No baptism means no Love to their eyes.
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Yeah I guess that would accurately describe the anabaptist position.

Eliyahu · Jun 22, 2007

Even in the Council of Milevi in 416 AD, there was the condemnation on the Refusal of Infant Baptism, which indicates Donatists performed the Re-Baptism ignoring Infant Baptism.

http://www.freewebs.com/acatholiclife/baptism.htm

DHK · Jun 22, 2007

Agnus_Dei said:

…and during my “door knocking” days I would come across more Methodists and other fractions of denominations that couldn’t answer a simple question like: “How do you know you’re going to heaven…?” they’d stand there with dumbfounded looks.
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I have never heard a Catholic give a correct answer to that question yet, including yourself. Would you mind answering it?

Agnus_Dei · Jun 22, 2007

DHK said:

I have never heard a Catholic give a correct answer to that question yet, including yourself. Would you mind answering it?
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You just said that you never heard a Catholic answer the question correct including me (Agnus_Dei). So why should I answer again, only for you to disagree?
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Eric B · Jun 22, 2007

Agnus_Dei said:

Fact is there are pew warmers in every denomination. Not every Church goer is steeped in Theological matters; even as simple as knowing if you’re saved. My wife’s grandfather refused to go to Church b/c he believed it was nothing more than a “social club”, and sadly most are. This is why Christ gave the Church the Sacraments so that we may know we are saved. So really you're point is mute...
-
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And many of those pew warmers in sacramental churches are led to believe they're saved because of the sacraments, regardless of everything else. So the Church with sacraments is no better than the others, but perhaps worse; actually encouraging pew warming, though in theory they may condemn it.

DHK · Jun 22, 2007

Agnus_Dei said:

You just said that you never heard a Catholic answer the question correct including me (Agnus_Dei). So why should I answer again, only for you to disagree?
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The whole point of this thread is about infant baptism. It's purpose (if any)? It's necessity (if any)? It's Scripturalness (if any)? Its value (if any)?

In John 3:3, Jesus said: "Verily, verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
It is evident that in order for a person to see heaven or have an assurance of going to heaven he must be born again, not baptized.

Have you been born again? If so, how? When? How do you know? If you have truly been born again then you would have that assurance that was referred to.

BobRyan · Jun 22, 2007

mes228 said:

It's curious to me that "High Order" churches get constantly attacked on this board for doctrinal "errors" taught. But everyone pretty much lets Baptist slide on error after error. If all Higher Order churches are to be held "guilty" by God for teaching error. Where does that put Baptist and other Fundamentalist?? Just to mention a few errors of the Baptist. No legitimate, honest, Theologian or Scholar on earth can take Scripture and teach Tithing (as it is commonly taught by the Baptist)
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IF you believe that to be true - start a thread on it.

nor "total abstinence from alcohol" (other than a discipline),
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If you believe that to be true start a thread on it.

nor the "Rapture" (I'm speaking of the full blown LaHaye type fictions that many teach).
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OK I agree with you on that one - but again I would say start a thread on it if you believe it.

The point on this area of the board is open those teachings up to disussion.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jun 22, 2007

Agnus_Dei said:

You take a Jack Chick, Dave Hunt and David Cloud stand and believe that “Satan” is bringing Unbeliever’s into the Church, via “infant baptism”. When neither you nor Chick, Hunt or Cloud understands the role of infant baptism, you just regurgitate old worn out accusations that have no merit.

In addition, an infant who’s been baptized still has to go through “Confirmation” when he/she reaches the age of accountability and I’m sure you’re familiar with Confirmation and what they’re confessing to believe…
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I "believe" you have just "confessed" that the BIBLE doctrine on Baptism is being REPLACED by the man-made doctrine of "infant sprinkling plus believers confirmation many years later"

So that is the "confession" part -- now where is the repentance?

EVEN the RCC admits that infant baptism WAS NOT what the NT saints of the first century were practicing.

Read the Didache without closing your eye to the details sir.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jun 22, 2007

From Catholic Digest (Parenthesis mine in the quotes below) from the June 1999 article. Article by Bill Dodds begins on page 42 and is titled “Baptism Comes Full Circle”. (Page 42 is just a picture of an infant being sprinkled – so no actual words on that page).

Please see www.catholicdigest.org for the full article that hints to the changes that have evolved over time.

Page 43
"Tacking on a little here and dropping a bit there has never altered the essence of the sacrament itself, but by the middle ages, the rite had evolved into something very different from that used by the early Christians".

Pg 44
"go into the world and proclaim the gospel...whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. The new testament does not tell us how the apostles baptized, but, church historians say, most likely a candidate stood in a river or public bath and water was poured over his or her head. The person was asked : do you believe in the father? Do you believe in the son? Do you believe in the spirit? With each "yes" the candidate was immersed.

Justin Martyr (100-165) offered a bare-bones description:"

"the candidate prays and fasts "-
"the church community prays and fasts with him"
"the candidate enters the water"
"the minister asks him the three Trinitarian questions"
"the candidate now is introduced into the assembly"

pg 45
"half a century later the writer Tertullian gave a few more details. He talked about an anointing, a signing of the cross and an outstretched hand over the candidate. For those first centuries after Christ, the steps required to become baptized were not taken lightly. Often, they led to martyrdom"

"a candidate needed a sponsor, a member of the Christian community who could vouch for him or her. It was the sponsor who went to the bishop and testified that this was a good person. Then for years the sponsor worked, prayed, and fasted with the protégé until the baptism"

<>

"at that time, the catechumenate (coming from the greek word for instruction) had two parts. The first, a period of spiritual preparation, lasted about three years. The second began at the start of lent and included the routine of prayers, fasting, scrutinies and exorcisms. (daily exorcisms didn't mean the candidate was possessed by the devil. Rather, he or she was in the grip of sin. The exorcisms were designed to help the individual break free)."

"Next the candidate was brought before the bishop and the presbyters (elders), while the sponsor was questioned. If the sponsor could state the candidate had no serious vices - then the bishop wrote the candidates name in the baptismal registry. More than a mere formality, this meant the candidate could be arrested or even killed if the "book of life" fell into the wrong hands"

"it was only gradually that the candidate was permitted to hear the creed or the our father. (and he or she was expected to memorize them and recite them for the bishop and the congregation)."

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BobRyan · Jun 22, 2007

From Catholic Digest (Parenthesis mine in the quotes below) from the Jun From Catholic Digest (Parenthesis mine in the quotes below) from the June 1999 article. Article by Bill Dodds begins on page 42 and is titled “Baptism Comes Full Circle”. (Page 42 is just a picture of an infant being sprinkled – so no actual words on that page).

Please see www.catholicdigest.org for the full article that hints to the changes that have evolved over time.

"after the new Christians emerged from the water and were dried off, they were clothed in linen robes, which they would wear until the following Sunday. Each new member of the community would then be handed a lighted candle and given the kiss of peace"

<>
"often it was seen as the final trump card, to be played on one's deathbed, thus assuring a heavenly reward"

"it's important to keep in mind that the doctrine of baptism developed (evolved) over time. It was not easy, for instance, determining what to do with those who seriously sinned after baptism" pg 47

"coupled with that was the role of infant baptism. (Catholic) scholars assume that when the 'whole households' were baptized, it included children, even very young ones"

"but again [quote]
it was the development of the doctrine, such as st. Augustine's description of original sin in the fifth century that eventually made infant baptism predominant. At that point
(read change),
baptism was no longer seen as the beginning of moral life, but (it became viewed) a guarantee of accpetance into heaven after death.[/quote]

"in the early (dark ages) middle ages when entire tribes in northern Europe were being converted, the whole clan was
baptized if the chief chose to be...by the end of the eighth century, what before had taken weeks (of preparation and process by
non infants) had been greatly abridged. Children received three exorcisms on the sundays before easter, and on holy
saturday;..youngsters were immersed three times."

"the rite was further abridged when the tradition of child or infant receiving communion at baptism fell into disfavor.

"and because baptism was now viewed as essential for acceptance into heaven, the church offered a shorter "emergency"
rite for infants in danger of death. By the beginning of the 11th century, some bishops and councils pointed out that infants
were always in danger of sudden death and began to encourage parents not to wait until holy Saturday ceremony"

<>

BobRyan · Jun 22, 2007

Didache on BELIEVER’s Baptism by Immersion:

Didache 7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize. Having first recited all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living (running) water.
]
Didache 7:2 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water; and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
Didache 7:3 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Didache 7:4 But [b]before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able; and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.

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BobRyan · Jun 22, 2007

Magic ritual confirmation/confession by RCC sources

FE The Faith Explained (RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican ii).

"
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baptism is the means devised by Jesus to apply to each individual soul, the atonement which he made on the cross for original sin. (for all sin?). Jesus will
not force his gift upon us, the gift of supernatural life for which he paid. He holds the gift out to us hopefully, but each of us must freely accept
it. We make that acceptance by receiving (willingly) the sacrament of baptism" pg302[/b]

"whether it is the passive acceptance of the infant or the explicit acceptance of the adult - when the sacrament is administered the spiritual vacuum
which we call original sin - disappears as God becomes present in the soul" pg 302

"by baptism we are rescued from the spiritual death into which we were plunged by the sin of Adam. In baptism God united our soul to himself.
God's love-- the Holy Spirit -- poured into our soul to fill the spiritual vacuum that was the result of the original sin. [b]As result of this intimate union with god,
our soul was elevated to a new kind of life, a supernatural life, a sharing in god's own life.

From then on it becomes our duty to preserve this divine life.(we call it 'sanctifying grace') within us; not only to preserve it, but to
deepen and intensify it. Pg 62

after baptism the only way we can be separated from God is our own deliberate rejection of God.[/b] That happens when in full consciousness
of what we are doing, deliberately and of our free choice we refuse God our obedience in a serious matter. Pg 62 – 63

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BobRyan · Jun 22, 2007

Tertullian on Baptism by immersion

difference whether a man be washed in a sea or a pool, a stream or a fount, a lake or a trough; nor is there any distinction between those whom John baptized in the Jordan and those whom Peter baptized in the Tiber, unless withal the eunuch whom Philip baptized in the midst of his journeys with chance water, derived (therefrom) more or less of salvation than others.

Tertullian
CHAP. IV.--THE PRIMEVAL HOVERING OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD OVER THE WATERS TYPICAL OFBAPTISM. – 671
TERTULLIAN “ON BAPTISM. “ [TRANSLATED BY THE REV. S. THELWALL.]
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian21.html

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Tetullian – repentance comes before water Baptism – and before remission. So “believer’s Baptism”.

for in that John used to preach "baptism for the remission of sins," the declaration was made with reference to future remission; if it be true, (as it is,) that repentance is antecedent, remission subsequent; and this is "preparing the way."

Ibid. CHAP. X.--OF JOHN'S BAPTISM.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian21.html

They who are about to enter baptism ought to pray with repeated prayers, fasts, and bendings of the knee, and vigils all the night through, and with the confession of all by 679

Ibid. CHAP. XX.--OF PREPARATION FOR, AND CONDUCT AFTER, THE RECEPTION OF BAPTISM.
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mes228 · Jun 23, 2007

Baptism

Bob, one thing that the several historical post you made on baptism illustrate. Was what (in my opinion) is a flaw in todays "seeker" movement churches that most all are trying to copy. They will 'dunk" you in a heart beat, then shepherd you into a "social club" network "just as you are". Give you a "serving position" or something so you will feel you are a "part" of the work and then use you up. I've attended "Community" churches where if you dressed up or carried a bible you were the really odd person attending. Jeans and baseball caps the normal dress.
Everyone there would probably wear the best they had for George Bush or the Queen of England, but any old thing will do to appear before God.

As for starting a topic on abstinence, the Rapture, or tithing. I'm sure they've been hashed out before. I doubt anyones mind was changed. However, I sincerely believe that no person honest with scripture, nor Scholar, nor Theologian on earth can support the average Baptist belief on these subjects.
Which varies a great deal from the "Baptist Faith and Message" official teachings.

All the "Higher Order" churches I'm aware of recognize that giving/tithing cannot biblicaly be a legalistic demand/law. Nor are all monies titheable. This is lost on most Baptist members. The "many" have been taught they rob God if the tithe (10% on all - no matter the origin of funds) isn't paid on everything. The "Baptist Faith and Message" has it correct and goes no further than scripture. I known several very pitiful examples of elderly Baptist tithing of Social Security, pretty much bankrupt with medical bills, and never being told better. Those old people were not robbing God, their Church was robbing them.

Gotta Go - I'm late.

Eliyahu · Jun 23, 2007

mes228 said:

However, I sincerely believe that no person honest with scripture, nor Scholar, nor Theologian on earth can support the average Baptist belief on these subjects.
Which varies a great deal from the "Baptist Faith and Message" official teachings.
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I am wondering what you are talking about.

What is the difference between "Baptist Faith and Message" Official teachings on this issue? and what is the Average Baptist Beliefs subjects ?

I ask this because I am afraid that I am condmned as "a person not honest with the Scripture" by you.

Though the post was addressed to Bob, it already involved me in " NO person, No Scholar, No theologian, etc." So, please answer my questions.

DHK · Jun 23, 2007

DHK said:

The whole point of this thread is about infant baptism. It's purpose (if any)? It's necessity (if any)? It's Scripturalness (if any)? Its value (if any)?

In John 3:3, Jesus said: "Verily, verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
It is evident that in order for a person to see heaven or have an assurance of going to heaven he must be born again, not baptized.

Have you been born again? If so, how? When? How do you know? If you have truly been born again then you would have that assurance that was referred to.
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What? No answer Agnus?

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