Interesting slant

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Stratiotes, Nov 11, 2004.

  1. Stratiotes

    Stratiotes
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    Interesting slant on the "morality" issue in the recent election:
    Just War
     
  2. Priscilla Ann

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    You bet it's interesting. The Christians I know who voted for George Bush voted for him bacause they believed he was against abortion and gay marriage. Yet they were not willing to look at Bush's mistakes regarding the Iraq war; in fact, to even suggest that he may have made mistakes was considered by many to be "unpatriotic." I guess "morality" depends on one's definition.

    Interesting indeed....

    PA
     
  3. donnA

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    The war exsists no matter who is next presidnet, no one is perfect, God forbid, not even the presidnet( doesn't matter which one). War has always exsisted,a nd always will, as matter of fact it will only get worse. Theres nothing in scripture I know of that comdemns it. What about gay marriage and abortion, do you think they are biblical or not? Does God approve or does He hate them?
     
  4. johnp.

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    Rom 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

    Doesn't matter who voted for who God voted for Bush and deserves support.

    Rom 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

    We live in a democracy where we have a right to protest our governments actions.
    We also have a duty of responsibility. If our protest is seen as weakness, which it is, then our enemies will work on our weakness, which they do. The peace campaigners are causing all of us more problems than we need because our enemies like too see us as weak and at each others throats. Divide and conquer.

    Rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

    The authority to use the sword is given to the leaders of the country and it is used in His service. They are the ones that must face the Lord and give an account of themselves.
    Who gives us the right to make our troops in the field question why they are there? It makes them less effective if they think they are dispised at home.

    As for the morality of voting for Bush, who is controlling the destruction of some very nasty people, or voting for Kerry, who considers that women should have the right to do as they please, even though there are 4,000 daily abortions in the US, what? Not vote?
    I do not believe the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are mistakes. They have prevented attacks on our countries by focussing the terrorists elsewhere which as President he is instructed to do, Rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do you good...

    If this is the beginning of continuous resource wars then we had better get used to it or get used to living like the Third World. Is our morality up to that? Our leaders are there to do us good, our morality comes out of the barrel of a gun. Our standard of morals are supported by our strength, to overcome the Hitlers, Stalins and anyone else that wants to enslave us. Without power and the willingness to use it unrestrained we will be at the beck and call of some very nasty people.

    Is Garry Wills a Christian?

    johnp.
     
  5. johnp.

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    forgot the e-mail notification
     
  6. mioque

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    johnp.
    "God voted for Bush and deserves support. "
    "
    This works both ways, God voted for Chiraq and Schröder too and deserves support from the Germans and French as well.
     
  7. Stratiotes

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    I don't know that God voted "for" them so much as he voted to give us what we want. Just as he did with Bill Clinton. We get what we deserve as a nation - good or bad. Romans 13 is not a carte blanche for any leader who happens to find himself in God's favor at the moment.

    As an aside, I think it is odd that we think of our government as or "leaders" anyhow. In a democracy or a reupiblic based on a democracy, the government is the people - we're the boss, not them. They are our servants, not our masters.
     
  8. mioque

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    Every country that holds honest elections get's the leaders it deserves. A very scary fact indeed.
     
  9. Pennsylvania Jim

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    I Samuel 8:5-20

    [5] And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
    [6] But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
    [7] And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
    [8] According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
    [9] Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
    [10] And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
    [11] And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
    [12] And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
    [13] And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
    [14] And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
    [15] And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
    [16] And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
    [17] He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
    [18] And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
    [19] Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
    [20] That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
     
  10. johnp.

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    Hello mioque.

    Yes of course. The French and Germans want to take you off your perch. Give them nothing.

    Hello Stratiotes .

    No, He wills His will not yours as a nation. "...for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."

    It is nothing to do with finding yourself 'in favour'. Saddam was also God's servant before God destroyed him. The leaders of nations are there by appointment to serve God purpose. When He has finished with them they go to the place He has appointed them.

    No we elect them to serve. To serve as leaders. How can we be the boss of them when everyone has a different notion. They must walk a fine line which to some degree is a weakness but it is also a great strength. I did say as citizens of a democracy it is fine to protest and make our feelings understood.
    During the eighties I was working in a holiday location. Towards the end of the season I was considering which large city to go to so that I could join in the Poll Tax riots that had gripped the country. To the barricades to fight a witch. But that was an internal matter. Those things that affect the nations defence are another matter entirely. (That was before I became a Christian but I think I would take part if it happened for the right reason now.)

    Hello Pennsylvania Jim.

    I know we are a holy nation, a Royal Priesthood and strangers in this world. I do not hold to being British but am an ambassador here. I do believe though that we have a part to play in our earthly nations political life.
    If we see injustice in our nations then we should do something about it if it is possible.
    My King is enthroned in the Heavens and He has placed Bush as leader of the world. I respect His decision and watch why He did so decide. Those in power are there by God's command whether they submit to Him or not. ...Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?" Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. John 19:10-11.

    johnp.
     
  11. poncho

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    Hi Johnp,

    Glad to meet you.

    At one point in time in this country all power was inherent in the people we have founding documents to prove it, at one time most people in this country believed that...even the judges.

    I'd have to say that in America God voted for We The People, but he was vetoed by the American Globalist Party and that power was usurped long ago by any and all means available.

    Even using Romans 13 as their claim to a divine right to rule over us.
     
  12. KenH

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    I believe that the war in Iraq is moral.
     
  13. poncho

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    If the war in Iraq is all about liberating the Iraqi people by removing Saddam from power then why is it our leaders seemed to have so much trouble finally deciding on that one particular reason?

    Could it be that they knew their actions were moral but couldn't sell us the war on that slant so they graciously gave us several options to choose from?

    In that case I pick the 45 minute mushroom cloud theory as my moral grounds for this war...which reason(s) do you favor? You got 27 to choose from, so take your time.
     
  14. mioque

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    johnp.
    "The French and Germans want to take you off your perch. Give them nothing."
    '"
    :confused:
    I have no idea what this sentence means in the context of this discussion, please clarify.
     
  15. rsr

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    Dear Verger, he doesn't realize you're Dutch.

    I won't tell if you won't.
     
  16. Pennsylvania Jim

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    It is nothing to do with finding yourself 'in favour'. Saddam was also God's servant before God destroyed him. The leaders of nations are there by appointment to serve God purpose. When He has finished with them they go to the place He has appointed them.

    </font>[/QUOTE]Let's have a look at Romans 13.

    The problem is that evil rulers and the people who support them LOVE verses 1 and 2

    [1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


    But they skip verses 3 and 4:

    [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


    Not too many would contend that Hussein or Hitler were "not a terror to good works", and a "minister of God to thee for good".
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    Those who love all the verses realize that this passage does not discuss the type of leadership a government provides. The Roman government was far worse than any government today. Yet Paul commanded obedience.

    As I have pointed out many times, you willfully change the Scriptures to try to make your point. It is not only unnecessary, it is wrong to change God's word to support your own political ideals.

    I was reading ACts 5 this morning, where Peter and John were released from prison and instructed to go back to the temple square and preach. And when they were arrested again, it was peacefully. They did not throw a tantrum, resist, and insist that they be carried off in handcuffs. When the authorities said "Come with us," they went. What a difference from today's "Christians" who insist on making a scene in protection of their "rights." Peter echoed this teaching 1 Peter 2. We need a whole lot more Peter's and John's who will do it God's way, rather than changing Scripture to try to support their own way.
     
  18. Pennsylvania Jim

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    ...That's why he wrote half of his epistles from prison??



    Prison...arrested...Hmmm.
     
  19. johnp.

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    Hello poncho.

    You don't really believe that God was 'vetoed' do you?
    Since He says that the powers that be are ordained of Himself then they are. Woe to them if they think that is divine favour. We took the head off a king who thought he ruled by divine right. They rule for as long as God commands. He does as He pleases.

    I think we had justifiable and reasonable grounds to suspect that Saddam had those weapons. Once the ultimatum, 'or face serious consequences', there could be no more waiting. He messed with us once too many times.
    If the only reason was to frustrate France then that in itself was enough. The idea that France could dictate American foreign policy would not have been good for America and it would have sidelined Britain in Europe.

    I really don't understand the confusion over the war. They seem genuinely confused themselves in not knowing which way to jump. It seems as if they do not know how to sell it to the public.
    I don't think they made enough about turning Ghadaffi like that. That was a big time story that never quite made it.

    Hello mioque.

    Sorry Dutchman! I did not look to see where you were from.
    We are going to Amsterdam in a couple of weeks for a weekend break.

    johnp.
     
  20. poncho

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    No I don't really believe that anyone can veto God Johnp. I could have picked a better way to say that.

    Maybe something like. America was founded on the idea of the people being sovereign as in government of the people, by the people, and for the people so personally I can't see how Romans 13 means we have to submit to a group of men in Washington DC. I've already explained how we delegate our power to our electd public servants by doing nothing. Most folks don't seem to be able to grasp the idea however and demand to be ruled by a so called government ordained of God. I say that God ordained the people in this case to be the rulers here.

    Collectivism wasn't all the rage in 1788 like it is today. The idea of individual freedom is all but forgotten today.
     

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