Interesting Teachings from Augustine . . . .

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LisaMC, Feb 4, 2003.

  1. LisaMC

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    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-02/npnf1-02-33.htm#P4812_2611041

    Augustine
    On Christian Doctrine
    Book II

    [ February 04, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: LisaMC ]
     
  2. LisaMC

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    Chapter 9.-How We Should Proceed in Studying Scripture.

     
  3. LisaMC

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    On Christian Doctrine
    Book III

    Chapter 5.-It is a Wretched Slavery Which Takes the Figurative Expressions of Scripture in a Literal Sense.


     
  4. LisaMC

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    On Christian Doctrine

    Chapter 42.-Sacred Scripture Compared with Profane Authors.


     
  5. thessalonian

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    Lisa,

    Since your so big on Augustine, you would love I believe it is book 22, chapters 8 and 9 of City of God where he talks about relics and the Shrine of St. Stephen, the Martyr in Acts. Check it out.
     
  6. LisaMC

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    Thess,

    So, how do you deduce that I am big on Augustine from me posting some interesting teachings of his? :confused:
     
  7. LisaMC

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    Thess,

    Does what Augustine says in the section you recommended negate or cancel out something he said in the sections I posted? :confused:
     
  8. thessalonian

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    Well first off Lisa, I don't think you are especially if you studied him much (which you apparently haven't). I also think it is funny how you try to show him supporting your view on scripture. I bet you 100 bucks you could find quotes from JP II that if you didn't know who had written them, just that they were Catholic, you would post them like you did with Augustine. The fact of the matter is that none of those quotes you posted are against Cathoicism, nor are they a complete story on what Augustine believed with regard to scripture and tradition. We hold the Bible to be the word of God. We think it is very clear about many things. (Like Eucharist and the need for Baptism). We also know from the words of Paul that "some things are hard to understand, that the unstable will distort to their own destruction".

    Here are some more quotes from Augie, you might like.


    tradition
    From the stromata
    "Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God's will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from escape the blessed tradition.(10) "

    "So that we may have our ears ready for the reception of the tradition of true knowledge; the soil being previously cleared of the thorns and of every weed by the husbandman, in order to the planting of the vine. For there is a contest, and the prelude to the contest; and them are some mysteries before other mysteries. "


    THE STROMATA, OR MISCELLANIES: REST OF BOOK VII

    ." As to those other things which we hold on the authority, not of Scripture, but of tradition, and which are observed throughout the whole world, it may be understood that they are held as approved and instituted either by the apostles themselves, or by plenary Councils, whose authority in the Church is most useful, e.g. the annual commemoration, by special solemnities, of the Lord's passion, resurrection, and ascension, and of the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven, and whatever else is in like manner observed by the whole Church wherever it has been established. "

    "Of the heresies, some receive their appellation from a [person's] name, as that which is called tradition after Valentinus, and that after Marcion, and that after Basilides, although they boast of adducing the opinion of Matthew [without truth]; for as the teaching, so also the tradition of the apostles was one."


    There are many others, but you get the picture. Augie was not a Bible alone guy.
    Blessings
     
  9. LisaMC

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    Thess,

    Do you not see the significance of these to portions coming from the same book of Augustine? First you have:

    On Christian Doctrine
    Book III


    Chapter 5.-It is a Wretched Slavery Which Takes the Figurative Expressions of Scripture in a Literal Sense.


    Later followed by:

    St. Augustine
    On Christian Doctrine
    Book III


    Chapter 16 - Rule for interpreting commands and prohibitions


     
  10. LisaMC

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    Um . . . I'm almost sure that it was Clement of Alexandria who wrote the Stromata. Want to check on that and get back to me? :rolleyes:
     
  11. LisaMC

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    Also, I'm curious as to why you would think that the quotes I have given from Augustine are an attempt, by me, to endorse that Augustine was a sola scripturist?. I know it's nothing I said. You wouldn't have made that inferrence simply based upon what you read from Augustine here, now would you have?
     
  12. LisaMC

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    Where'd ya go Thess? :confused:
     
  13. LisaMC

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  14. LisaMC

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    Bumping this up for Bill Putnam. Here are some quotes from Augustine that I found interesting. What do you think?
     
  15. WPutnam

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    I've read through this thread and found it interesting. Did you notice that Thess also posted some material that stresses tradition as well?

    I have a book I am contemplating scanning pertinant parts that shows where the early fathers seemingly support Sola Scriptura. And it is not Augustine alone that is quoted but about 10 other authors.

    But in the same book, when these same authors are studied in context of their complete writings, they are not Sola Scripturists at all, but those who are in heresy are! And the book goes on to show an overwhelming list of the early fathers who support the authority of tradition (Sacred Tradition) as well.

    Where it may seem that a given early church father supports Sola Scriptura, what is actually happening is, scripture is the only common ground in a debate against a given heresy. In other words, the heretic denies the authority of the Church - accepting only scripture. Therefore, the early church fathers were forced to debate from that "common ground" - scriputre only - as a debate from the authority of the Church would certainly not convince the heretic.

    Anyhoooooooo, I will look into providing those other quotes for your edification and amazement.

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
     
  16. LisaMC

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    Bill,

    Did you forget this topic? :confused:
     
  17. WPutnam

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    Lisaa, go back and read my last reply again! It's there!

    I also have your reply on Sola Scriptura on the hard-drive ready for replying to, to be done in a day or two...

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Bill - you have a couple of problems here. The RCC itself endorses the "Sola Scriptura" model that ALL doctrine must be tested by scripture - not just Augustine.

    On the other hand - you are inserting a definition of "Sola Scriptura" that NOT ONLY requires that all doctrine be tested by scripture - but ALSO that no directives/instruction be given BEYOND what is written. In other words - you are ADDING a definition that Augustine - and others that adhere to Sola Scriptura here - might not agree with. Certainly Martin Luther did not agree with that "added" definition.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. WPutnam

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    Bill - you have a couple of problems here. The RCC itself endorses the "Sola Scriptura" model that ALL doctrine must be tested by scripture - not just Augustine.

    On the other hand - you are inserting a definition of "Sola Scriptura" that NOT ONLY requires that all doctrine be tested by scripture - but ALSO that no directives/instruction be given BEYOND what is written. In other words - you are ADDING a definition that Augustine - and others that adhere to Sola Scriptura here - might not agree with. Certainly Martin Luther did not agree with that "added" definition.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks. Bob, but from the moment the New Testament was available to all, including all of the Church, it has always tested a doctrine from both the Sacred Traditon and by the Sacred Scriptures.

    As for going "beyond what is written," where do you see that? Also, this "going beyond" needs some good defining. If you mean a doctrine that comes out of thin air, you are so right. But if you means that it is a doctrine that has always been believed but is only implied in scripture (such and the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary) then we have a problem with definition.

    It took hundreds of years of study, reflection and prayer before the above mentioned dogmas were proclaimed, simply because they were not explicit in scipture, but only implied in that nothing in scripture would speak against it, while at the same time, indicate the logic of why the dogma was proclamed in the first place, i,e., that since Mary was to be the very tabernacle of the Lord for nine months, it is logical that she would be the perfectly sinless womb-provider suitable for Our Lord.

    Now, I invite you to study Augustine and Luther to see what they felt about Mary, insofar as her being an "Ever-virgin," "Conceived without sin," etc. and see what you might find.

    Luther, interestingly, believed much of what we believe about Mary today. And I believe Augustine did as well....

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Lord, grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change,
    the courage to change the things that I can,
    and the wisdom to know the difference.
    Living one day at a time,
    enjoying one moment at a time;
    accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
    taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
    not as I would have it;
    trusting that you will make all things right
    if I surrender to Your will;
    so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
    and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
    Amen.
     
  20. LisaMC

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    Yes, Bill, I read your last post. Your last comment was:
    have you not had a chance to gather those qotes?
     

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