Interpretation of 1 Jn 2:1-2

Just a reminder:

Nowhere in the First epistle of John are the words "Israel' or "jews' or derivatives of those words.

While we find these words in the Gospel of john they are not found in his First epistle.

Secondly, the second use of the phrase "the whole world" in the First Epistle does not bear up to your definition pointing to Israel and the Gentiles:

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.​

Here the phrase is used concerning "we" (the children of God) as opposed to the world of the unregenerate.​

Thirdly the word "propitiation" while applied to the children of God can also be applied to the whole world as the word means "satisfaction" or "appeasment" in regards to the "sin of the world".​

The Father is "satisfied" "appeased" by the blood of the cross to allow even mortal life to all men in order to make reconciliation possible, though all are alienated from Him while in the flesh and we come into this world with His wrath hanging over us.​

Otherwise we would have to come into the world in the regenerated state.​

Colossians 1
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.​

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

Propitiation and reconciliation are two distinct entities.​

All who are in the world are under His propitiation from the foundation of the world lest the human family perish immediately under the wrath of God.​

One day the offer of eternal life made possible by this propitiation through His blood will be withdrawn, then the appeasement will cease and His wrath will fall unimpeded upon the unregenerate.​

KJV John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

NIV John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."​

HankD​

 

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Does the preceding imply that the Atonement will apply to different ones at different times?

What part of Israel do you think are blinded?

 

Percho,
God has always preserved an elect remnant among the nation of Israel.
You are on the right track.here is an example; Isa1:9

God has an eternal plan to save a multitude of people. That multitude are those whom God elected.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

Allan you said this the other day;

IN many of your posts you like to speak about the context...it will exactly answer your questions.

Heb.2:9- 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham16

The seed of Abraham.......not the seed of Adam.
the descriptions in bold print are describing the "seed" of Abraham.

like this;

Why did salvation come?
Who are the lost that Jesus came to save? ezk34

 

Allan,
you said;

all are condemned because of sin,,,justly

all who remain in adam die going into second death.

the elect while born dead in adam

,God set His love upon in eternity past, drawing them saving into Christ

saving faith is the gift of God

 

Iconoclast

Does the preceding imply that the Atonement will apply to different ones at different times? I don't want to misunderstand you, Is this what I am on the right track on?

I would also be interested in what part of Israel you think have been blinded?

All Israel shall be saved. Does that apply to those blinded also?

 

Those blinded remain blinded, they are the branches broken off in unbelief.
romans 11.
Jesus: is the true Israel. All believers,jew and gentile are the Israel of God.
Isa/49:1-8.

The atonement is made only for them,

 

how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This appears to me the ones blinded will or could be graffed back in.

 

I noted that you didn't actually interact with what I said about the verses your author gave and mine regarding context

Without trying to sound like I am putting you down... cause I am not.. go back to context and map this out. You "SEEM" to be ignoring it.
For whom does verse 9 state Jesus tasted death?

And then it continues on in that it was only right that the He through suffering was made perfect (or a perfect leader- thus captain) to bring many sons to glory being the captain of their salvation...
Next.. Both the sanctifier and those who are sanctified are one, and as such calls us brethren.

NOTE- Thus far this does not in ANY sense state His death was ONLY for some.. In fact, the very contrary is true it states specifically that he tasted death for every man. It then goes on identifying those who are His as being one with Him through that death.

And when you get to verse 14..it speaks to the fact of why he become a man. NOTE HERE - that it is changing somewhat what is being discussed. That he became a man.. thus it regards his humanity.
Verse 15 That he might free those who, because their bondage [in/to sin], feared death
Verse 16 states He did not take on the nature of angels but took on him (became) the seed of Abraham..

This is NOT referring to spiritualized Israel but context dictates this is referring to the same thing John does in that He/Jesus clothed himself in flesh.. and a specific flesh at that.. Notice we was not born a Greek or any other nationality.. and that was because of what Romans 9 states was is part of National Israels blessing (specifically 9:5).. God claimed them as His His people (in general), covenanted with them, gave them His Word, His promises which includes the coming Messiah through the Jewish people..

According to context.. Israel is the Flock which God is referring to. (vs 2)

 

While it is true.. to what extent was we saying.. just being conceived is damnable?

What about verses like these:

Note why scripture here states they are condemned.. not sin, in and of itself but for not believing/receiving Him

We find the same thing over in John in which John states those who believe are not condemned but those who do not believe are condemned already.

I'm not saying sin doesn't condemn people but here we have a qualifier regarding condemnation in relation to sin.

Sorry no.. Neither the Greek nor the context states this.. You can go back and look for Greek discussions on this (I have participated in many) and you will find there is not solid evidence for such a statement in connection with 'that' verse. Maybe others but not this one.

 

The Word to me implies all Israel will be saved, i.e. those that believe on Jesus Christ, for if they do not accept their redeemer, how can they be of Israel? A true Israelite believes God, but the others are only of the Flesh.

 

In context of John's writing...can you support this strictly with his use of "whole world"?

 

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", I John 2:1-2.

I can only speaking for myself, agreeing with the comment posted by Iconoclast, on the first page.We all know John was an Apostle to the Jew, and we can see that in I John when he writes in the above "he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only". We know the Jew had no relations with Gentiles (excepting proselytes). Therefore they were not of the rest of the world.

Another addition to the Gospel was added at the Happening on Damascus Road. John first became aware of this addition when the Apostles in Jerusalem gave Peter the third degree, because he dared to attempt to preach the gospel of the Jew to a Gentile (Acts 10). Jesus Christ sent Peter to Cornelius, but we see He would not allow him to preach the Gospel intended only for the Jew. Peter had the best defense in the world (Acts 11:17-18). The Apostles in Jerusalem now knew what Jesus Christ from heaven was revealing to His only Apostle to the Gentiles, the Grace Commission of salvation through faith, with out the works of man. Paul explains to us, and the Apostles in Jerusalem, the mystery hidden from man since the world began (Romans 16:25).

Jesus could not tell us, nor any other man about John 3:16 until it was inspired in John by the Holy Sprite to write it.

 

Not quite what I was looking for

Can you show us John's usage of "whole world" in all of his letters and his intention of that phrase in his writings?

 

Now that IS FUNNY? You gotta laugh.....Oh God Bless it! LOL

 

Not sure what was funny about that...but I'm glad you were amused

 

Are you looking for something outside of Scripture? I can't help you there. Sorry

 

No...from Scripture...show me each time John uses "whole world" and the context of THAT phrase, and then reconcile that with your use of "whole world" in this passage.

 

This is a very interesting observation that I never considered.

1. Answer:The atonement in the OT was made for Israel.
2. Answer: It was made for all of Israel.

The Atonement of the OT was not able to pay for sin and was a shadow of Jesus ultimate atonement that was the authentic atonement for all time.

I think that is an awesome observation question yet, to me, it holds no weight because it is an assumption that God meant that to be a direct similarity with Jesus atonement for the whole world (meaning every person).

The issue of the of the atonement is to satisfy the justice of God. unless Jesus' atonement was a general atonement and was not to be made for everyone's individual specific sins perfectly to satisfy a perfect judging God then I can't fathom how God would punish both Hitler and the 15 year old person for the same single sin- rejection of Jesus. Further I still haven't had a good response to how God laid the sins of a person in hell on Jesus and also on the person in hell. It is a contradiction to God's righteous judgment and throws off the scales.