Intro to Lordship Salvation- Reviewed

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Dec 19, 2007.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    To All:

    In upcoming weeks, in this thread, I will be reviewing portions of John MacArthur's Introduction to Lordship Salvation.

    It has been suggested that this on line article proves John MacArthur's Lordship interpretation of the Gospel is sound and orthodox. This claim of orthodoxy comes from some men who have admitted to NOT having read any of MacArthur's four major works on Lordship Salvation. Consequently, they do not fully understand the issue. Some, therefore, are speaking primarily out of loyalty to the man which gets in the way of an objective review of this teaching.

    Is MacArthur’s Lordship Salvation the biblical plan of salvation? We will examine the article and test it against the Scriptures. From his own writing, crosschecked and compared to additional publications by MacArthur, I will demonstrate certain elements of the non-saving Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel that frustrates grace (Gal. 2:20). I will provide contributions to the review from other men who have studied the LS message in depth.

    There are additional doctrinal issues that will be reviewed from MacArthur’s Introduction to Lordship Salvation.


    LM
     
    #1 Lou Martuneac, Dec 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2007
  2. TCGreek

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    Lou,

    I'm looking forward to it (I've read Gospel According to Jesus; Gospel According to the Apostles and Hard to Believe). What is the 4th?
     
  3. Lou Martuneac

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    TGATJ: Revised & Expanded Edition.


    LM
     
  4. webdog

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    Hey, if you have a prepared statement from his website, that should shadow his many books on the subject, right?
     
    #4 webdog, Dec 20, 2007
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  5. canadyjd

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    Let's get started: You can locate the introduction at:
    http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/2439

    Instead of reviewing "portions", let's just walk through it. Before John MacArthur goes into what he sees as the distinctives of Lordship Salvation, he briefly defines it and acknowledges several fundamental doctrines.
    MacArthur will spend some time developing this doctrine later on. Right now, let's look at the fundamental doctrines which he affirms.
    I notice that MacArthur affirms that all the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone.

    I notice that MacArthur affirms that God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation.

    I notice that MacArthur affirms that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works.

    It is clear, then, that MacArthur specifically denies that an "upfront" commitment to discipleship is necessary for salvation.

    It is clear, then, that MacArthur affirms salvation by grace through faith, not by works.

    I understand that some may not agree with MacArthur that all believers affirm these seven fundamentals. What is important for this discussion, is that MacArthur affirms these before explaining the distinctives of Lordship Salvation.

    Can we agree that MacArthur believes these fundamentals which he clearly embraces?

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #5 canadyjd, Dec 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2007
  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd
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    And this is MacArthur's first distinctive of Lordship Salvation: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/2439



    He seems to be saying that faith and repentance go hand in hand. Does anyone disagree with this statement?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  7. JDale

    JDale
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    No. Hebrews 6:1-3

    JDale
     
  8. skypair

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    JD --- Disagree. Repentance comes before faith. See if this doesn't make more sense:

    I believe/hope that Jesus saves -- I repent of SELF (not sin - it is impossible to quit sinning) -- God gives the Holy Spirit making it possible for my "belief to become sight"/faith!

    So no, you can't have faith until you repent. That is why there are so many people who believe but aren't saved! "Belief in vain" is what that is called (1Cor 15:2).

    BTW, I appreciate your going through this "by the numbers." Perhaps we can all learn from this.

    skypair
     
  9. TCGreek

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    If I may add to the relationship of Repentance and Faith: Are they two sides of the same coin, as have often been expressed? Or are they distinct commands to be obeyed in appropriating salvation through the blood of Christ?

    1. The first time we read of Repentance and Faith together is in Mark 1:15, "Repent and Believe in the good news!" Here, they are treated as distinct commands.

    2. Then we find them together in Acts 20:21, "Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus." Here, in the Greek, one article governs Repentance and faith, signifying a unity, two sides of the same coin--being that internal activity.

    3. Again, in Hebrews 6:1, "not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God..." Here, they are treated as separate commands.

    Notice, that when Repentance and Faith are used together, Repentance always precedes Faith.

    Through the work of the Spirit, a person comes to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
     
  10. skypair

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    AMEN, Brother!! Preach it!! :applause:

    skypair
     
  11. Lou Martuneac

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    What to Expect

    Web/All:

    I am going to show, from JM's Intro to LS a number of examples, of how his Lordship interpretation of the Gospel is a "departure from the faith once delivered,"
    (Jude 3).

    If you know the polarizing statements, the catch-phrases and how JM (and LS advocates) define key terms, the errors are not hard to detect when compared with Scripture.

    BTW, there is the appearance of another little known, but strange view of doctrine of JM in his Intro to LS. Do you see where it appears, it and know which I refer to? It is there, but in subtile terms. It is not a Calvinistic leaning, something else.

    That is the mystery issue that I may lead with.


    LM
     
  12. canadyjd

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    Thank you, I hope to have an interesting discussion.

    I disagree with you, skypair, that repentance means to "repent of self" and not "repent of sin". Do you have any scripture that speaks of repentace meaning to "repent of self"?

    BTW, MacArthur made it clear in his foundational principles that true believers will sin.

    What I find interesting concerning MacArthur's view is that he sees repentance and faith as gifts of Divine Grace. Even though they are "required" for salvation, they are not "works" one must do to earn salvation. They are gifts from God.

    Anyone can clearly see, then, that MacArthur does not believe or teach a "works-based" salvation that frustrates grace. He embraces Divine Grace.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  13. Lou Martuneac

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    In the Shadows

    What the MacArthur apologists often conveniently keep in the shadows (such as above) is that MacArthur believes (the extra-biblical teaching) that regeneration must precede faith. That is the lost man must first be born again, and then afterwards he will respond in repentance and faith.

    The other aspect that is not being properly disclosed is that “Divine Grace” is Calvinism's Irresistible Grace.

    Please see Lordship’s (Out-of-Order) Salvation


    LM
     
    #13 Lou Martuneac, Dec 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2007
  14. skypair

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    I've recently renamed their "hope" the "gospel of election." (vs. OT "gospel of the kingdom" or NT "gospel of Christ")

    If they are "elect," everything else given to them. But notice that their "election" has nothing to do with Christ. God apparently chose them to be saved and then He planned to make them meet the criteria for salvation, receiving Christ.

    That is highlighting the flaws of Calvinism -- doubtless few of them have seriously thought about the consequence of believing in election vs. free will seeing most of them came to Christ by free will to begin with.

    But I am convinced some actually have done nothing to commit themselves to salvation or, as you offer, "do" the "Lordship" thing believing that it is unto salvation.

    And good works actually do save in this life according to scriptures which, I'm afraid, heightens the illusion that they are saved eternally.

    skypair
     
  15. skypair

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    jd -- it is spoken of in many places. It is called "dying to self."

    Most famously and exhaustibly, Paul talks about it in 1Cor 15:12-40. The early Corinthians did not believe in the resurrection of the dead so Paul goes on to teach them:

    1) That you must die in order to be saved/resurrected. In Hebrews, the verse "it is given unto man once to die and then the judgment" also applies to the moment of salvation when you die and are judged "in Christ!" That is not just confess or repent of sins -- that is die to the flesh, even the "good" that the flesh might do (which, as you know, is also "filthy rags," Isaiah)

    2) So to prove this, Paul says, "Why were ye baptized for the dead if the dead rise not." IOW, you were baptized as a testimony that you died in Christ. Were you not also resurrected/regenerated in Him when you believed?

    3) And again he says, "You fools. That which which you sow is not quickened lest it die!" You can't be saved nor regenerated unless you first die to self "in Christ" in the reverse manner to which you died from God to self "in sin!" And when you "die in Christ," then God gives you a new body -- you don't know what it is but it ain't gonna be what it was! It is a body "as it pleaseth God."

    So you see, I think many Calvinists, like the Corinthians, don't understand this issue at all. Regeneration could not possibly come before repentance/death to self, could it? Have you noticed that strict Reform and Calvinist churches don't rebaptize adults? And further, may sprinkle infants for "sins" but not immerse as for "death?"

    Lou could probably get into this better but it seems they have lost the whole meaning of baptism and exchanged it for another image.

    Yes, there is a place where "God may perchance grant repentance" from sin. This demonstrates that "repentance from sin" and repentance from self" are 2 different things, doesn't it? Repentance from self is death to the flesh. Repentance from sin is release from sin in the new, reborn flesh.

    Let me just quote JM: "the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority." Here again, we see "repent from sin and yield" but we KNOW that we can't do that unless we are regenerated. In order to be regenerated, we need to hear the gospel and repent of/"die to" self. JM has a missing link in his "golden chain of salvation" (much as Sproul has). We have to be regenerated to repent of sin BUT we have to repent of self/die, even of our good works, to be regenerated per 1Cor 15.[/b]

    skypair
     
    #15 skypair, Dec 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2007
  16. canadyjd

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    From MacArthur's website: I count at least a dozen references to scripture. You don't have to agree. But to call it an "extra-biblical teaching" is intellectually dishonest and just plain distortion. MacArthur has used scripture to support his position.

    peace to you:praying:
    http://www.gty.org/MeetGTY/DoctrinalStatement

     
  17. canadyjd

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    I Cor. 15:12-20 talks exclusively of the resurrection. There is no mention whatsoever of "regeneration".

    Everything you stated concerning this passage is pure speculation on your part.

    I have never seen anyone build theology on such unstable ground.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. skypair

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    Then my point to you would be like Paul's -- what were you baptized for? What did that mean but that you died in Christ and were resurrected in Him???

    skypair
     
  19. EdSutton

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    Speaking of "pure speculation", how about redefining "repent" (Gk/ metanoeO) as "repent of/from sin"?

    Is that "speculation"? Or just bad theology' on "such unstable ground"?

    Ed
     
  20. Lou Martuneac

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    MacArthur apologist does not convey the fact that MacArthur's regeneration before faith position is arrived at because the Scriptures cited are interpreted and redefined through the lens of five point Calvinism.

    There is no Scripture that categorically teaches men are born again (regenerated) before faith/believing in the Lord. It is, therefore, an EXTRA-BIBLICAL teaching that is antithetical to Scripture.

    To reiterate- JM's regeneration before faith is the belief that lost men are born again before they express repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

    Zeller wrote,
    See- Does Regeneration Precede Faith?


    LM
     
    #20 Lou Martuneac, Dec 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2007

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