Introducing myself... an arminianist

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Tatian, Jul 7, 2004.

  1. Tatian

    Tatian
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    My real name is David and I have been looking for a site to help sharpen me. Though I imagine most would agree, this issue is not a salvational, I have noticed such things as this topic and others help me to learn and grow in so many other applications of the world because frequently they are affected by this subject.

    My theology has been influenced, over the years by such authors as Dr. Norman Geisler, J.P. Moreland, F.F. Bruce, B. Metzger and some others. I will give a brief statement of faith on
    this issue. I encourage you to challenge me.

    Total Inability. I am completely, of my own self,
    unable to come to Christ. My good deeds are as filthy rags before the Lord and so I will not please him with my works.

    Conditional Election. A faith responce is required from me for salvation. This faith is not a work for salvation. We are saved by grace through faith. Grace was the accomplishment of salvation. For faith to be a work, it would have to accomplish salvation which it does not. Grace does.

    Limited Atonement. Limited in application not availability.

    Quenchable Spirit. The spirit is not cohersive.

    Persistance of the Saints. Eternal Security is not rooted in an unconditional election.

    Let the fire works begin. [​IMG]
     
  2. Tatian

    Tatian
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    "...help me to learn and grow in so many other applications of the world..."

    world=word
     
  3. Ray Berrian

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    I am an Arminianist too.

    I have a little different take on Total Depravity. Yes sinners can commit almost any sin but even after the Fall in the Garden, God has made us and continues to make sinners in the Image of God or as James says, 'after the similitude of God.' [3:9] I believe in Prevenient Grace, though I do not like the term. By this I mean that the Holy Spirit convicts and invites all sinners to receive Christ once they have heard the Word of truth.

    I believe, as I think you do, that Election becomes a reality in the lives of those who open their hearts to Jesus Christ rather than some alleged autocratic decree made by Almighty God as to who He accepts and makes His sons and daughters and those who He wilfully rejects and sends to Hell. [Romans 8:29 & 10:13]

    Unlimited Atonement means that Christ died for every sinner who will have ever lived, but only those who open their hearts to the Lord will now and at the judgment be saved. [I Timothy 2:6] To deny this point is to detract from the Divine justice and love of God toward all the lost. [Mark 16:15-16] The atonement of Christ is sufficient for all but only effective in the elect. [I John 2:2]

    Irresistible Grace: It is possible for sinners to reject both the conviction and the prompting of the Holy Spirit of God, before they come to know Christ. [Acts 7:51, John 5:40, Isaiah 63:10]

    An Arminian theologian usually also believes that a Christian can fall from grace once saved and later be lost. Although I do not believe in Preserverence, the fifth point of Calvinism, I do believe that a truly born again, saved person will never be forsaken by the Lord and will finally make it to Heaven. [John 10:27-29 & I John 5:13; 5:18]

    Regards,
    Rev. Dr. I. Ray Berrian, Th.D.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Tatian,

    I'm not a Calvinists, you'll find few on this board who really like to be confined by a label, but I do know its good to take on other perspectives in order to better understand your own, so I'll take a stab at this, if that is ok?

    If what you believe about Total Depravity is really true then you must believe in Unconditional Election and Irresistable Grace. If you are truely UNABLE to do ANY good on your own, then it only goes to reason that you can't even respond in faith to God and his message of redemption. You are so depraved and so blind and so dead in your sin you couldn't believe God and you wouldn't even want to unless God gave you a new desire.

    So put that in your free will pipe and smoke it. [​IMG]

    (Calvinists, am I doing alright?)
     
  5. panicbird

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    Skandelon, I especially liked this part: "So put that in your free will pipe and smoke it." I may have to use that sometime. I will, of course, cite my source.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  6. Skandelon

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    I'm sorry. I should have given credit for that line to great Nicholas Petreley, who I dearly love as a brother in Christ.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Skandelon

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    Oh, and I can't believe I let this pass by without a comment.

    Have you read the story of Paul on the road to Damacus? I know mobsters who are less cohersive than God was to Paul, so get your pipe back out and smoke on that one! ;)
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    God was working on Saul long before His conversion when the Lord appeared in the brilliant light. Acts 7:55-60 shows us especially in verse 58 where the 'witnesses laid down their clothing at Saul's feet, suggesting that he was responsible for the death of this man Stephen, a man made in the image of God. [James 3:9] He knew the 10 commandments that said Thou shalt not kill, and that is why the Lord speaking through Luke said 'it is hard for you to rebel against the proddings of the Spirit of God.'

    Saul did not say, "Yes, Lord I will change my ways," but rather suggests that he did not even know the Lord Jesus. He rather said, 'Who art thou, Lord?'

    Only after the conviction had set in and this awesome appearance of the Lord, did Saul yield to the Lord. His words were: 'And trembling and astonishingly Saul said . . . '

    The call to salvation had set in and Saul of his own free will and accord, agreed to obey the Lord God, but not without his consent to follow Jesus.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  9. Hardsheller

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    So you think this confrontation by Jesus on the Road to Damascus was supernatural?

    If so - How does that differ from our Conversion Today?
     
  10. Skandelon

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    I'll assume you are addressing me...

    Yes, its obvious that the confrontation on the road to Damascus was supernatural. Who can argue with that? It was a blinding light, a voice, followed by a miraclous healing. What is not supernatural about that?


    Do you really have to ask that question?

    1. We are not converted by such supernatural means, unless you have a story or know something I don't.
    2. This was the conversion and appointment of a divinly inspired apostle of Christ who had unique authority and abilities granted to him from above.
    3. We believe by faith in the message of those who were so uniquely called and appointed.
     
  11. Ian Major

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    Skandelon said
    (Calvinists, am I doing alright?)

    You made my day! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    In Him

    Ian
     
  12. Hardsheller

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    I'll assume you are addressing me...

    Yes, its obvious that the confrontation on the road to Damascus was supernatural. Who can argue with that? It was a blinding light, a voice, followed by a miraclous healing. What is not supernatural about that?


    Do you really have to ask that question?

    1. We are not converted by such supernatural means, unless you have a story or know something I don't.
    2. This was the conversion and appointment of a divinly inspired apostle of Christ who had unique authority and abilities granted to him from above.
    3. We believe by faith in the message of those who were so uniquely called and appointed.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I do have to ask that question.

    Given your explanation exactly where does the Supernatural Presence of God cease to come into play in all other Salvation Experiences except that of the Apostles?
     
  13. Skandelon

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    I wouldn't say that the supernatural presence of God ever ceases to come into play with regard to salvation. The gospel message itself is supernatural. It is wrought by the Holy Spirit himself, that's pretty supernatural. The gospel is called the power of God unto salvation, I think that is supernatural.

    I think we are beating around the bush of the whether or not the supernatural is always effectual.

    Personally I do believe that the apostles were individually set apart and effectually called to their unique positions. I believe that is what has lead to some of the confusion in scripture over this issue.

    Pastor Shaver, there is something that set the apostles a part from those who believe in Christ through their message. I believe that is the uniqueness of their calling. In fact, if you read Paul's writings you will see that he refers to being "set a part from birth," revealed to directly from Christ Himself "(Gal 1) and "effectually called" (Eph 3:7). He states these things as a means to establish his authority as an apostle. The are distinctives of an apostle.

    We would all agree that Jonah was effectually called to go preach in Ninevah, right? Does that somehow prove that the individuals in Ninevah were or were not effectually chosen to respond to his message?

    Prove that God effectually calls his messengers is not proof that he does so with their audiences. I don't believe God leaves his inspired message up to men's choice. He sovereignly intervenes in that regard, but that in no way proves He effectually intervenes in the lives that hear it. If He does, then why can't all believers claim the same authority as the apostle Paul?

    Afterall, think about it, I would be set apart from birth, effectually called and taught from above just as Paul was if Calvinism is true.
     
  14. Hardsheller

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    Skandelon,

    You wrote - Afterall, think about it, I would be set apart from birth, effectually called and taught from above just as Paul was if Calvinism is true.

    1. Do you think that God knew before the Foundations of the Earth that you would be Saved?

    2. Do you think that God knew before you knew that you would become a Minister?

    3. When you go to the Word to prepare for a sermon what is it that makes your study different from the study an unsaved Professor of Literature is engaged in when he studies the Bible at Harvard?
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    These two things are not enemies. Most of us who believe in unconditional election also believe that a faith response is necessary for salvation. We do not believe that a faith response is necessary for election. Election took place in eternity past; salvation takes place in time.
     
  16. Skandelon

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    1. Do you think that God knew before the Foundations of the Earth that you would be Saved?

    Yes, knowing something beforehand and sovereignly causing it to happen are two different matters.

    2. Do you think that God knew before you knew that you would become a Minister?

    Yes, same as above.

    3. When you go to the Word to prepare for a sermon what is it that makes your study different from the study an unsaved Professor of Literature is engaged in when he studies the Bible at Harvard?

    The difference is that I have the guidance of the Holy Spirit who resides within me.

    I have a follow up question for you:

    What is the difference between when you preach each Sunday and Paul's sermon recorded for us in Acts?
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    What bright light went on that I did not see? Are you saying that all professors at Harvard are lost? Are you suggesting that one might be lost? Or is just one unsaved?

    I thought it would be Jesus decision as to who is saved and lost. [John 5:22b]

    Apparently, Harvard University is an institution of higher education only for sinners and never a place for the people of God to study.
     
  18. Hardsheller

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    Which of Paul's Sermons in Acts or all of them?
     
  19. Skandelon

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    Any sermon.

    What is different about the authority of your words and the authority of his?
     
  20. Hardsheller

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    Every sermon we have in the book of Acts that is attributed to the Apostle Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit through the writer Dr. Luke.

    In Paul's writings he clearly distinguishes between what is his opinion and what is a Word from the Lord.

    Paul's words whether inspired by the Spirit or simply of his own volition carry more weight than my words simply because of his office - Apostle.

    Are some of my sermons inspired? I certainly hope so but if it does happen it is not because of my work or my intellect at play nor is it because of my office as Pastor, rather it is because the Spirit empowers the words that come out of my mouth and that are heard by the ears of those with whom the Spirit is working.

    The old Black Preachers used to call it the "Unction" And they were quick to attribute it to the Holy Spirit.
     

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