Iraqi Veterans Against the War

Lady Eagle,
You pretty well have this nailed down. Bush and Cheney are pathetic.

 

I appreciate your heartfelt sentiments, but sad to say, you are wasting your well thought out post on liberals.

Thank you for your service. :applause: It is impossible for those who have never faced real danger in their entire lives to understand the bond of men in combat. They have never placed their lives entirely in the hands of others nor had others place their lives entirely in their hands.

 

The Vietnam card is getting old. Who wasnt in Vietnam around our age? John Kerry was in Vietnam. So what?

You seem to have this notion that all combat veterans should hold your political views. I can guarantee you they dont.

First you say the war in Iraq is a war to keep out of a war for survival, and claim it is like WW2. Now you are trying to compare a Vietnam War combat experience with what are troops are experiencing now. Which is it? Unless of course of think Vietnam was also like WW2. :BangHead:

 

You seem to have developed a personal grudge against me. Your attacks are uncalled for.

I suggest you get over it. It'll eat you up.

On the other hand, you have supported my post brilliantly and I thank you.:applause:

 

Nothing I said supports your position. When you get over your glorification of the Bush/Cheney ineptness, then a civil converstion is possible. And yes, anyone who cannot see how their lack of leadership has cost unneeded American lives, that drives me nuts.

 

That's a little better.

But you did support my post perfectly by being so resentful about your lack of experience in the military.

I do not share your hatred of all things related to Bush or Cheney. Sorry. Hate is something I really try to avoid. As I said, it eats you up and doesn't hurt the one you hate at all.

 

I got news for you. My experience in the military I am going to guess is much greater than yours. Just because mine is not broadcast on every thread, does not mean a thing. It started right where you are always talking about, but did not stop after one term. Not out of anger, but you really need to let the past go.

 

Good. Then you should understand the bond between troops in combat. You should also understand the phenomenal rates of re-enlistment among Iraq War veterans. You should also understand that unless one has been through what they have been through together, they can't really understand that bond.

If you don't understand all those things, then your experiences were not what you are implicating.

I agree it was a mistake to give out so much information about myself on an open forum. There will always be those who want to use it against you out of resentment or jealousy or some form of misguided animosity like yours.

But I'm not really into one upmanship concerning military service. Mine is what it is and if yours isn't what you say, well that's your problem. I also know what I know and if you can't handle it, that is also your problem.

 

There is no jealousy or misguided animosity on my part. Your posts are very judgemental. You act like you are owed something because you served in the military. Again I ask, who our age didnt? If you would like to compare medals or awards or something like that from your time in service, just let me know. The statement "I know what I know" makes no sense. This is the United States of America. We as Americans are not bound to agree with your opinions.

 

I'm not into chest thumping. I'll leave that to you and John Kerry.

 

Just following your lead buddy. Dont put me in the same category as John Kerry. But then again, that is no more destructive than blindly following George Bush.

 

You're not following my lead. I've never offered to compare medals with anyone. You sound more like Kerry than me.

 

LE

In every era there are those that run . . . They tend to cause a lot of trouble for the rest of their lives.

And the one thing that really makes them mad? courage . . .

 

LE, will get back on topic, sorry. El Guero, who are you saying ran? The last thing I need is two guys from Texas validating my courage.

 

It's pleasant to have a discussion without sniping.

The ironic thing is that before the invasion, al Qaeda didn't have even a toehold in Iraq, but now they are there full force. We opened Iraq's border to them.

Unfortunately, our unprovoked invasion of a sovereign country is probably going to be used against us by the hate-mongers.

I whole heartedly agree with you on that.

True, but limited, less than what we had. The Ba'athists were largely secular - the former Prime Minister, Tariq Aziz, is Christian - while the Taliban are the worst kind of fundamentalist who would practice the worst kind of shariia. Iraq had declared women to be equal - they had sufferage and careers. The men were shaven and wore Western style suits and blue jeans. Al Qaeda and the Ba'athists didn't mix well culturally.

Extremely limited. Saddam threw one of the guys involved in the previous WTC attack in prison.

I had read that bin Laden thought Saddam Hussein too unstable to be trusted, but I don't know how reliable that report was.

Yep.

I'm not so sure that the war on terror has worked well as far as territory goes - they are less of a presence in Afghanistan, but they are still there and they are in Iraq where they were not before.

Yeah, but I still think a pre-emptive attack that destablilizes the region is the wrong approach.

Instant gratification.

We didn't run; we walked away victorious. We destroyed Saddam's nuclear programme and their weapons systems. We pulled the tiger's teeth.

But, yes, we did betray the Shiites we had made promises to.

It's a difficult and complex situation. I'm not convinced that pulling out is the right thing to do, but I'm not sure it isn't.

It's politics.

Bush is not without blame in pushing the divide.

We're the world's only Superpower. Exactly how weak can we be compared to everyone else?

 

Political differences cause problems even amongst veterans, LE. Some take it personal.

 

Veterans don't always see things the same way! We are of the people we served. We have different political opinions and religious convictions. We are the saved and unsaved. We are Christians and non-Christians. We are Republicans and Democrats and others. We're just not all alike.

Veterans didn't all experience the same things! We all played a part - all parts are needed - but our roles were varied. Every veterans has their own six inch view of their experiences. Some have a view from a bit higher up than others. We don't all have the same basis from which to all reach the same conclusions.

Veterans are, in my observations, generally proud of having served, proud of the service, branch, and units in which they served, and humble with respect to their own contributions relative to that of others and the whole. They're supportive of the causes for which they were sent to fight albeit not always without question of the political motives and directions behind them. They're honest about the confusion, chaos, and mistakes of war. Some - few in my own contacts - are bitter about it and despise those they perceive responsible for it. Others just avoid the subject all together. Some veterans are students of history - often of the wars in which they served - wanting to better understand what really happened and others just put it all behind them.

Veterans - especially veterans of combat - are more likely than non-veterans to understand the brutality and unfairness of war, the depth of fear and the spontaneous nature of courage, the meaning and consequences of sacrifice, and the difficulty of victory and the ease of defeat. They hate war and love peace all the more because of it and yet they know that, on this earth, war is a given. They know it must be done and they know what it takes to do it. They are still warriors even when no longer in uniform. We can be very intense about it!

I find it impossible to muster any respect for organizations such as Vietnam Veterans Against the War as well as the same of the present war. The VVAW group, for example, was riddled with activists, fakes, wannabes, and a host of other weird permutations of confused and misguided souls. Among them I'm certain were some genuine veterans who, for whatever reason, felt being a part of an anti-war group was the right thing to do. I suspect the same is true today. We'll know more as the ugly head of the Iraqi veterans against the war shows itself more clearly. I can still respect the service of those genuine veterans among them but, never the less, despise their actions after the fact. None of this shakes my own convictions any more than in previous wars.

 

The DAV is who I am involved with. I basically agree with your points above, and anyone is entitled to any political or other view they feel is correct. However, there should be no tolerance from the American people for ineptness in leadership costing American lives. This has nothing to do with democrat, liberal, conservative or anything else. It has to do with common sense. If a leader and his side kick do not know how to run a war, resign and let someone who does know take over. And yes, I will be the first to admit, I have real problems with people who condone such leadership at the cost of American lives. There is NO connection between having served in the military several decades ago and being obligated to bow down to present incompetence.

 

Well stated.

Why call their head ugly and why do you despise them and their actions? Which actions? I'm not particularly familiar with them as you seem to be.

What is the DAV?

Also well stated.