Is. 45.7-8

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, May 15, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    create(d); to create
    H1254
    בּרא
    bârâ'
    BDB Definition:
    1) to create, shape, form
    1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
    1a1) of heaven and earth
    1a2) of individual man
    1a3) of new conditions and circumstances
    1a4) of transformations
    1b) (Niphal) to be created
    1b1) of heaven and earth
    1b2) of birth
    1b3) of something new
    1b4) of miracles
    c) (Piel)
    1c1) to cut down
    1c2) to cut out

    2) to be fat
    2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
    Same Word by TWOT Number: 278


    Does the above information seem to shed a greater light on Isaiah 45. 7-8?

    45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
    8  Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

    It did for me!

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    The problem with using the Piel stem is that bara' in regards to evil that Isaiah uses is in the Qal stem...
     
  3. Frogman

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    Thanks Scott, but aren't both stems active?

    According to Young's, would this hold true even in the present phrase?

    "The conjugations from 1-7 are: Kal (Qal, I assume), Niphal, Piel, Pual, Hiphil, Hophal, Hithpael." I believe these are ordered respectively according to the below:
    </font>
    • No. 1, 3, & 5: active</font>
    • No. 2, 4, & 6: passive</font>
    • No. 7: reflexive</font>
    This is further explained by Young as if it would be understood: 1: Kal--He created; 3: Piel--He created evil, the distinction given as to provide an object of the action, is this correct, Young's uses the word QATAL as an example word and it is given in the following way:

    1: Kal--He killed; 3: Piel--He killed violently

    In each is the same conjugation of the action verb, yet it is the descriptor added in the third conjugation that particularizes the action.

    So, if I am correct, and this remains to be seen, as there are others much more qualified to explain and/or do what I have attempted above, this would render Isaiah 45.7-8 to be speaking, plainly what it says:

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
    8  Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

    I form the light here is yatsar meaning To fashion, frame, constitute, form (Young's); with light being the object, or that which is formed

    and create darkness here is bara also found at Gen. 1.1; and also bearing the meaning 'to prepare, form, fashion, create; with darkness being its object.

    I make peace, here is asah and this means 'to do, make' (young's)

    and create evil again bara meaning the same as given above with the object being evil; (here, IMHO, evil and darkness are being distinguished).

    I the LORD have created it. here the word is again bara meaning: To prepare, form, fashion, create; (what is the object here?) IMHO, 'it', ok, what is 'it'; the object becomes that which is stated in the first part of vs. 8:
    Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together;

    This is such as again, IMHO, a command of God. (Just a thought added, what is the order in which God did create?)

    Seeking to better understand the Word of God, desiring the prayers of His people

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  4. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene
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    I always understood the "evil" in this passage to mean "calamity" rather than "wickedness".
     
  5. Frogman

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    I would not rule that out altogether, yet, can 'calamity' not be considered as 'evil'? I have always considered here to be found that which is both designed to work and to show the evil of a person's heart, then being that which 'the goodness of God' leadeth to repentance.

    Just some thoughts.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  6. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    Calamity is a matter of perspective. For the one who suffers from it, it is certainly evil. But for the one who benefits from it, it is a "God send".
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    Paul of Eugene, Yelsew and Brother Dallas all got a part of the meaning as to what Isaiah 45:7 means.

    God only warns through His prophets and ministers so long and then He steps into Providence with His 'evil' and/or calamity. Almighty God warned the Old Testament pagan nations and then He brought in desolation and judgment on those nations and people.

    But when it came to the nation of Israel, God's chosen people, He chastised and disciplined them because they were His covenant people. Yes, they felt cast off by the Lord and many times were decimated and driven into foreign nations as slaves, because of their backslidden condition in relation to our Lord. But as far as the individual Hebrew believers, they were always in union with the Lord of glory.

    And as a practical application, a lot of His Providence is being shown in our own beloved nation because of the evil in the hearts of saints and sinners. He brings calamity as judgment and discipline into peoples lives to get their attention.
     
  8. Frogman

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    Good Post Bro. Ray,

    Now let's consider the meaning of the next vs.

    8  Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

    In this it is also said "I the Lord have created it."

    What are your thoughts?

    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Any spiritual blessings coming to Israel come from above. The prophet Isaiah knows that righteousness comes only from the Lord as also duly noted in Isaiah 54:17 where he says, 'This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord.'

    The New Testament also supports this truth. When Abraham believed in the Lord is was then that righteousness was placed to his account or to his benefit. [Rom. 4:3] It is by believing that we are justified in the eyes of God and our faith is counted for righteousness.' [Romans 4:5]

    When salvation and righteousness reached the earth and touched the hearts of the Israelites it sprung up together. Whenever righteouness springs up the fruit of salvation will be produced in the lives of His people. The whole act of redemption, without question, is the result of His work and ministry coming from the Godhead. This is why He said, 'I the Lord have created it!'

    Somewhere in my study I jotted down that the word, 'Maker' as in Isaiah 45:9 and 54:5 are both in the plural form. By this I mean that the word Maker, referring to God, bespeakes His Plurality of Persons, namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This verse if studied honestly would deliver the Jehovah Witnesses from the error of their way. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit work in us His great and wonderful salvation. Our inner righteousness is the product of God working His regeneration and sanctification in our hearts/lives freely by His grace. [Eph. 2:8] Salvation is totally of the Lord.
     
  10. Frogman

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    I lean toward an agreement with you on this, especially in the last part which I will quote below:

    I understand Is. 45.8 to be speaking of Christ, the dropping down of heaven speaking of his humiliation and manifestation in the flesh, which speaks along with the resurrection of the opening and bringing forth of Righteousness.

    I Cor. 15.22

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     

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