Is an elect necessarily a believer, and vice-versa ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by pinoybaptist, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    I am posting this so as not to derail Paul 3144's thread on "The Five Articles of Remonstrance" where in reply to a question from Rippon he answered :
    To which dr. fuss then replied:
    So, the question is begged:

    Is an elect, or for the benefit of those who dislike the word, a child of God, necessarily a true believer always and is someone who in the eyes of men and in accordance with the tenets of his church, is a true believer, necessarily elect or a child of God ?
     
  2. kyredneck

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    Heheh, to use the 'ultimate oxymoron', I believe the first 'two weeks of Heaven' are gonna be chocked full of surprises; at who's there........and at who's NOT there.
     
    #2 kyredneck, Mar 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2010
  3. annsni

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    Anyone who is a believer is so because he is one of the elect. However, you can be one of the elect BEFORE salvation - not meaning that you are saved before you are saved but that you have been chosen to be saved at some point in time in your life before death. Only God truly knows who is saved and who is not and I do think that there are those who "play Christian" yet who are not saved.
     
  4. Paul3144

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    An elect person is one who was chosen by God in an eternal, unchangeable decree. I believe that God elected all of those who will come to faith in Christ to be saved, and passed over the rest. So, yes, all true believers are elect.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    spoken like a true Arminian.
    not disrespecting, Paul.
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    But, think about it, Ann.
    If the cross is past, and the blood has flowed in atonement and redemption, and Christ is seated in heaven, and the next agenda is His coming execution of the judgment meted at the cross, then there is no one of the elect whom He bled for who is not saved, although not all are believers, have become believers, or are decreed to be believers, in time.

    Definitely, Paul is elect, and Peter, and John, and James, and Mark, Luke, Timothy, Lydia, and Naomi, Timothy's grandmother, Barnabas, Cornelius, and all of those New Testament saints who were named in Scripture along with those of the Hebrews Faith chapter.

    But, chronologically speaking, there are those of the 3,000 first and then the 5,000 in the Book of Acts who lived in the same time frame that Paul and the rest of the above-named NT saints lived in who migrated back to their countries of origin whom Paul and Barnabas never got to visit.

    In fact, studying the book of Acts, we see these countries named but when we go to geography, we see that Paul's 3 "missionary" journeys hardly touched the tip of the iceberg which is the known world of that time, as well as the nationalities mentioned during the day of Pentecost.

    In our time we call "believers" those who call Christ their Lord and Savior and then we slice this down some more to those who adhere to certain sets of Christian doctrines, and then Baptists tone these down some more to those who hold to certain distinctives and further down the line these are shaved a little more until we come to a branch that started with a 6 inch diameter and end up with one whittled down to almost just an inch.

    So, how can all the elect be believers, and which believers are actually true believers and how do we know a true believer ?


    I am not trying to make anyone's head spin, just making a point of how ridiculous it is to pin any one title, creed, religion, theology, and such on the multitude of elect people from all nations, tongues, kindred, and people.

    I believe that the elect of God existed in all ages, even the time of the flood, among all people, even among those drowned and destroyed in the flood, so that pinning the title "believer" on anyone is erroneous except for the qualifying "not all believers are elect".
     
  7. annsni

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    The "elect", as is commonly used, are those who Christ chose to eternal live - salvation - SAVED. You cannot be saved without being elect. You CAN however, be elect without being saved - in our time understanding. But the elect WILL be saved before their death here on earth. An "elect" man cannot die without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in this life and thus, he will go to heaven based on his faith, trust and belief.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    Time salvation or gospel salvation. Thank you.

    Actually, the cross and the blood being behind us, all elect are already saved, but not all elect will obtain gospel salvation, or what you referred to above.

    His going to heaven has nothing to do with his faith, turst and belief. It all has to do with Christ's faith and obedience, and He has finished what He was supposed to do, according to Hebrews 9:12.

    However, his faith, trust, and belief is counted to the elect as righteousness and justifies him before God in this time world. His eternal standing however is all hinged on and dependent on Christ.
     
  9. here now

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    AMEN to this!!
     
  10. here now

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    Right on, absolutely!!
     
  11. olegig

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    What happens to someone who is "elect" but does not have faith, trust, and belief?
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    covered by the blood, in Christ, judged in Christ, unbelief, lack of faith, and all, life hid in Christ, name in the Lamb's Book of Life because it was the good pleasure of the Father to have his name on there, known by the Shepherd and Savior, called by name.

    sorry, olegig, and I do not say this to mock.

    but it is disappointing to realize that after all we've gone thru, all the faith we've displayed, all the trust we've confessed, eternity is for all who are in the Lamb, all were judged with Him at the cross, crucified with Him, regardless which side of the gospel they are in.
     
  13. olegig

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    I can surely see how it might seem a disappointment to you; but please don't saddle me with the same disappointment for as yet I have not taken the Biblical instruction of belief out of the salvation equation.

    I see this removal of belief as one of the implications I was referring to in the "Calvinist: How is God Not a Sinner" thread.

    (or pinoybaptist, am I totally misunderstanding you here?)
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    belief is among the results of faith, and like Paul says, faith cometh by hearing.
    now, given the immensity of the earth, the number of souls that have come and gone, and are to come and go,the thousands of years before the cross and after, the inability of man who is supposed to preach the gospel which is supposed to carry eternal salvation along with it, to be everywhere every minute of all the years that have passed in time, I wonder if you can tell me how belief is made an added requirement to the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and the blood that flowed at the cross in time ?

    eternal salvation of His people is all OF the Lord, and all BY the Lord.
    gospel salvation ?
    that is something else altogether.
     
  15. psalms109:31

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    Desire

    Hosea 6:
    6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
    and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

    God requires Acknowledgment from us and what He has done. Jesus took our place and we should praise God, because we are saved by grace, because we do not have to pay the debt we owe Jesus did.

    I really believe men don't really understand what grace and mercy is and misrepresent it, because they still don't understand.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    Again, we need to distinghuish between the entire body of elect people, from the beginning of time, to its end, and those OF the elect who are called out into a body of believers in the midst of which God is to be glorified (Ephesians 3:20).

    The entire body of God's elect people did not and will not hear the gospel of their salvation proclaimed here in time, but to those who do and profess to be servants and followers the Scriptures demand what you stated.

    Is this an indirect accusation that I am misrepresenting grace and mercy ?
     
  17. psalms109:31

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    Sacrafice

    We all know by faith that those who made sacrifice for their sin year after year for their sin knew about grace, that the lamb took their place for their sin. They knew what grace was. Just like by faith we believe in Jesus.

    Believing and acknowledge what the Lamb did does not take away the grace and mercy.

    One had a dream that they went through all that Jesus went through on the cross, felt all the pain and right at the death he woke up and the Lord said this is my grace and mercy you don't have to do that for eternity because of your sin, I took your place and didn't have to pay for eternity for I have no sins of my own now believe.

    Acknowledging or believing does not take away from grace and mercy of God. God ask us to believe so to Him it doesn't diminish His grace and mercy, so why does men think so?

    The door was opened for every one from the beginning God included from the beginning those who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believe @ first through circumcision of the body, to represent the circumcision of the heart that God can only do. It is just like today Jesus has included those having believed with the elect.

    If I was a non Jew(non-elect).back then, I could be included by having my family circumcised by believing God who then circumcises our heart.

    God cut out the elect (Jew) because of unbelief, because He said they are His people, but also including us when we heard the gospel of our salvation having believed, and cutting the elect out for unbelief.

    God is only going to save believers. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. God sent us out with the message, if the world does not hear it then it isn't God fault at all but ours.

    Ezekiel 3:
    18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for [Or in ; also in verses 19 and 20 ] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.

    20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

    James 5:
    17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


    The elect from the foundation of the world is simple Jesus and those who are in Him by grace through faith. God didn't know who they are He wouldn't be God.
     
    #17 psalms109:31, Mar 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2010
  18. pinoybaptist

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    psalm109:31,

    all I can say is you are on a different wavelength.
    try to turn the knobs a little bit and maybe you'll find mine.
    peace.:flower:
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    Mercy

    God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on. He will have it on believers, beginning of time or here in time. So we have a message to spread if they don't hear it and believe they will not be saved.

    Romans 10:
    14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]


    I do not desire to be on any mans wave length I desire to know Christ and Him crucified, who did it not for His own sake but the sake of others.

    Galatians 2:20
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
     
  20. olegig

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    Again I ask, am I understanding you correctly here?
    Are you saying there are countless folks who were saved and did not even know or acknowledge it?

    This is very easy, just look at all the passages that instruct us to believe.
    Even father Abraham's belief counted for something. (Rom 4:3)
    And because of Abraham's belief, he was given faith. (Rom 4:9)
    I disagree on the basis of the above.

    I agree.

    I would agree it is something else altogether in some folks mind.
     

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