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Is Aunt Jenny disobedient?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by UZThD, Apr 10, 2005.

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  1. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    when she sings in church? 1 Cor 14:34
     
    #1 UZThD, Apr 10, 2005
  2. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi UZTHD;
    I'm sorry but your question seems sort of silly. I've known quite a few men though who shouldn't open there mouths because they simply can't sing and throw everyone around them off Key, Including myself. This isn't the point though.

    Worship isn't learning. Worship is praising the Lord. Worship is praying. Worship is faithfully dying to sin daily.
    1st Cor 14:34 IMHO could just as well apply to anyone talking and disrupting the teaching of the Word. In the case of 1st Cor 14:34 it just so happend it was women creating the disturbance. For which they have been forbidden to speake in some churchs ever since. Because of a law we all are no longer under but we are all under Grace.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #2 ILUVLIGHT, Apr 10, 2005
  3. Gershom

    Gershom Active Member

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    The passage is in the context of prophets/preaching, not singing.
     
    #3 Gershom, Apr 10, 2005
  4. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    #4 UZThD, Apr 14, 2005
  5. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    #5 UZThD, Apr 14, 2005
  6. Ulsterman

    Ulsterman New Member

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    There were “liberated” women at Corinth who felt they had as much right to minister as any man, and in an act of defiance they had cropped their hair short as a statement of equality with the men.

    These women had been pressing for, and in probability exercising, a public ministry. They even sought to prophecy, speak in tongues, interpret and debate theological issues in such a way as to establish authority over the men. Thus Paul says “Let your women keep silence in the churches.”

    This statement applies within the context to those revelatory gifts in view. A woman had no right to prophesy over the head of a man, nor indeed to speak in tongues. She was to “under obedience” that is subject to the rule and authority of her husband.

    If she had any question pertaining to the content or character of any revelation she was to ask her husband at home, it was not for these women to lead the debate as the church formulated doctrine and as the Scriptures evolved.

    Women who behave like men are an embarrassment to their husbands and a reproach to the church. (1 Cor 14:35)

    So the answer to your question "Is Aunt Jenny Disobedient?" No.
     
    #6 Ulsterman, Apr 15, 2005
  7. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Not unless she's a singing preacher.
     
    #7 dianetavegia, Apr 15, 2005
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Man, if pentecostals obeyed the Bible and no women were allowed to preach or speak in tongues, then they would be, ah, er, Baptists!!
     
    #8 Dr. Bob, Apr 15, 2005
  9. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    #9 UZThD, Apr 15, 2005
  10. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    ===

    So...in chap 11, were those women prophesying to themselves?
     
    #10 UZThD, Apr 15, 2005
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    They weren't preaching to men (violation of Scripture) or in a church service (violation of Scripture).

    Women CAN preach - you should hear my wife - but cannot pastor. And when/if they preach, they must follow the restrictions.
     
    #11 Dr. Bob, Apr 15, 2005
  12. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    #12 UZThD, Apr 15, 2005
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Prophesying = proclaiming the message of God. On some cases it means foretelling future revealed events; most often it means forthtelling or giving forth the revealed Word.

    Paul makes it clear women CANNOT preach to men (usurping authority over a man). You're not fussing over that, are you?

    So if women CANNOT preach to men, yet they can preach (I Cor 11), then we are assuming a ministry of older women teaching younger women, women preaching to children, etc.
     
    #13 Dr. Bob, Apr 15, 2005
  14. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    #14 UZThD, Apr 15, 2005
  15. Ulsterman

    Ulsterman New Member

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    I think it is a rather stretched argument, but even if Bilezikian's view is correct, Paul's reference in verse 35 is giving Holy Spirit sanction to the opinion, and is reinforced elsewhere in his writings. Eg. 1 Tim 2:11-15
     
    #15 Ulsterman, Apr 16, 2005
  16. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    I think it is a rather stretched argument, but even if Bilezikian's view is correct, Paul's reference in verse 35 is giving Holy Spirit sanction to the opinion, and is reinforced elsewhere in his writings. Eg. 1 Tim 2:11-15 </font>[/QUOTE]===

    There have been a few jokes here like 'singing preachers.' But let's get serious. This forum is 'Bible Study' right? We Baptists are good students, right? Not just comedians!

    We believe in the Bible as our authority. 1 Cor 14:36 and the eta there is part of that Bible! We need to exegete that, not make jokes.

    So, why do you think it is a streched view re that grammaticism in 1 Cor 14:36"


    That is, IYO is it Pauline to use that particle disjunctively? v. 35 must be qualified by v36. Wouldn't you agree?

    Don't you think that rather than depending on one's understanding of Paul in 1 Tim 2 to interpret all related texts and requring all such Scriptures to conform to our understanding of that one text, it might be good to understand Paul in every related text?

    So, again, IYO how does Paul use that particle?

    Thanks,


    Bill Grover
     
    #16 UZThD, Apr 16, 2005
  17. Ulsterman

    Ulsterman New Member

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    Bill, I think it is legitimate to interpret Scripture by comparing Scripture. Yes, I believe the context is important, and there is of course that old adage, about making a pretext etc . . .

    Few other scholars I have read apply the grammar of vs 36 in the way Bilezikian does. I do not profess to be a Greek scholar, nor to cast doubt upon Bilezikian's scholarship, but from what I have read of his work he rides a bit of a hobby horse pushing for women in ministry. Could it not be that his opinions have prejudiced his view on vs 36?
     
    #17 Ulsterman, Apr 16, 2005
  18. UZThD

    UZThD New Member

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    Bill, I think it is legitimate to interpret Scripture by comparing Scripture. Yes, I believe the context is important, and there is of course that old adage, about making a pretext etc . . .

    Few other scholars I have read apply the grammar of vs 36 in the way Bilezikian does. I do not profess to be a Greek scholar, nor to cast doubt upon Bilezikian's scholarship, but from what I have read of his work he rides a bit of a hobby horse pushing for women in ministry. Could it not be that his opinions have prejudiced his view on vs 36?     </font>[/QUOTE]===

    Yes, it may be that his views on gender roles have influenced his view on the particle which begins v36. I think we all may succomb at times to allowing our preconceptions to influence our expositions.

    That is why I think Belizeken's claim is best met by researching Paul's use of that particle. This is easily done. If one does do that, then, B's scholarship re this one point may possibly be questioned.

    Of course Scripture interprets Scripture. But it must be Scripture that does that--not just our interpretation.

    Who is to say that your (or my) interpretation of 1 Tim 2 must supercede Belizekiens on 1 Cor 14:36 , and not vice-versa? THAT is why 1 Cor must be exegeted and not just decided by what we think 1 Tim 2 says.

    THAT, IMO, is precisely why B's grammatical argument must be met head on, not sidestepped.

    The same approach should be used to determine whether 1 Cor 11 and women prophesying refers to a church service with men present or not. It takes more than our saying "it doesn't" to prove it doesn't unless we suppose our views are the equivalent of Scripture.

    This forum is about study not just about being told what is "true." Careful arguments need to be made to back up what we say here---IMO!

    I am just saying here that Scripture correctly exegeted should be the basis for Baptist opinion---not tradition!
     
    #18 UZThD, Apr 16, 2005
  19. Ulsterman

    Ulsterman New Member

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    Amen to that!
     
    #19 Ulsterman, Apr 16, 2005
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    There is (was) the "office" of prophetess:

    Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

    2 Chronicles 34
    22 And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college:) and they spake to her to that effect.
    23 And she answered them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Tell ye the man that sent you to me...

    But of more importance IMO is one of the keys of understanding the Book of 1 Corinthians:

    1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

    HankD
     
    #20 HankD, Apr 19, 2005
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