Is Deception of Ones Salvation Possible?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Dec 21, 2008.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    We hear a lot of talk about if one is not found in Christ in the last day that they were never born again in the first place, or that if one comes to the conclusion that they are not born again now they have never been so in the past.

    Is deception possible? What is a clear sign that one has never been born again? Could one believe that he is born again and in the end find out that he has been a victim of deception? Is deception simply a chance that we all must inevitable take, or is there something we can do to insure that deception is not ones ruin?

    What instruction is there in telling someone that if in the end they are lost it simply proves that they were not born again in the first place? What consolation, what encouragement, what guidance in this present world do such sentiments imbibe?
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Dec 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2008
  2. defenderofthefaith

    defenderofthefaith
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    It is true that one can think they were properly 'born again' but then may find out that they were wrong and never were really saved weither it be in further study of the word or...sadly...after death.

    Its one thing to see that someone thinks they were born again but you know through the scriptures that they did not follow the correct steps to salvation - this is one clear sign.
    If they did follow the correct steps of salvation then we may see that maybe their heart was not right or that their motive was wrong - but I do not believe we have the right or authority to tell someone "your not saved, your heart was not right" but I do believe we can strongly urge them to be honest with themselves and we should study with them and hope that they see their heart was not right.

    1 Timothy 1:1-2
    "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"


    Notice the "doctrines of devils" and "speaking lies" - one can be a victim of deception and be taught lies about how to be born again.
    Deception is a chance you take if you do not follow the scriptures -
    1 John 4:1
    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

    2 Timothy 2:15
    "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

    The study of the scriptures (and by extension, knowing the way to salvation) is a personal responsibility so if you do not "study to show theyself approved unto God" and if you do not "try the spirits whether they are of God" then you are making deception just a chance.
     
  3. BTM

    BTM
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    I would go beyond the possibility of being decieved about ones' salvation and say that the Scriptures point to the certainty that many will be turned away at the Judgment, even after having been quite busy doing what they thought was the Lord's work.

    Matt 7:22-23

    Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    And then will I profess unto them. I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    These people knew who Jesus was, and protested that they had been serving Him, yet were told that they were never known by Christ. In John 10:14, Jesus said "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep..." Jesus never knew these.

    I believe the vast majority of religious people counting themselves as Christians will be turned away at the Judgment. I also believe that a good number who actually become Christians will also be lost due to unfaithfulness.
     
    #3 BTM, Dec 21, 2008
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  4. ray Marshall

    ray Marshall
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    Thank GOD that, that is in the hands of our dear SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST. We can do nothing in any way to make us in favor of GOD. He being the judge, we need not worry over the things that Satan will blast us with. I know of no one that I can say that they are saved or that they are lost. Promotion cometh not from the East, nor from the West, nor from the South, But GOD who is the JUDGE.. Just throw this in for thought. Why did he not say anything about the North? It could well be where GOD is.
     
  5. drfuss

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    drfuss: You have brought up the problem with the belief that: a person that apparently believes and later stops trusting Christ, was not really saved in the first place (the most popular eternal security belief). How does a Christian with this belief know that he (himself) is not also deceived just as the person who was apparently deceived and then stopped trusting in Christ? Of course, the answer is he believes he is really a Christian by faith.

    That is the same way a person that does not believe in eternal security knows he is a Christain, by faith. My point is the degree of assurance of salvation is the same for both those who believe in eternal security and for those who don't. Yet, eternal security Christians are taught that they are more secure than others.

    This would also apply to the Calvinists who believe they are part of the elect. Faith.
     
  6. BTM

    BTM
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    If we all have the same standard for our faith, these differing views would all disappear.
     
  7. drfuss

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    drfuss: When one really considers these differences objectively without bias, they are primarily only differences in terminology and a play on words, from a practical point of view.
     
  8. steaver

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    One who has been born again personally knows Jesus Christ is in them. Scripture teaches us this...

    2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Jhn 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

    Jhn 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


    Rom 8:14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Rom 8:15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


    Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    Deception of having recieved the rebirth is not possible for one who has called on the name of the Lord. God has promissed.

    On the other hand, a child of God can be decieved into believing false doctrines such as being told their salvation can be lost.

    God Bless!

    :jesus:
     
  9. steaver

    steaver
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    Not so. The word of God declares a born of God Christian KNOWS that he is a born of God Christian. The faith is the trusting in that which he knows is truth and patiently waiting for it to happen.

    The just (those born of God) shall live by faith (trusting in the promisses of God) .

    Too many Christians do not understand what born of God means. It is not a mystery, God tells us in His word. Our faith in Christ is not blind and it is not something we turn on and off. We KNOW Jesus. Our faith may be weak or our faith may be strong, but we cannot disbelieve that which we have knowledge of is an absolute truth.

    :jesus:
     
  10. steaver

    steaver
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    Correct. These people were opportunist for personal gain. We have lots of them in our pulpits today. They are not born of God else Jesus would know them as sheep. The Lord personally knows those who are His and knows of all of those who have inwardly rejected Him.

    :godisgood:
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Are you serious in that you do not believe that those deceived standing before Christ in the last day, claiming to be believers but Christ knows them not, never had an initial experience that from all apparent reasons at least appeared to them as a birth into the Kingdom? It would seem obvious to me that anyone so deceived, deceived to the point of standing before the Almighty God trying to gain entrance into the Kingdom would have had at some point a salvation experience, either soundly so or deceived to believe they had. Not only would it be reasonable to believe they had some sort of experience that they had entered into a hope of eternal life, but worked to further the Kingdom of God at least in their own minds. Does the devil go about casting out demons? Do the workers of darkness go about the Lord’s work? I would say only if they are deceived as to their professed relationship with God, which had to have started with what they saw as a rebirth, either rightfully so or deceived as to what it entailed.

    If deception was not possible, why the warnings and the admonition to make our calling and election sure?? Why the warnings not to fall away and become barren and unfruitful as many before us obviously have?? Why would God be warning us as believers to stay faithful to the end??

    Yes God has promised many things. Here is a promise from God that many seem unwilling to consider. 1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.,
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You confuse knowing something by faith with knowing something absolutely. Whether you admit it or not, faith always has an element of uncertainty to it, otherwise it would be sight and absolute knowledge rather than faith. Heb 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things NOT seen.

    Now we have hope via faith. When we stand before Him in judgment, we shall see absolutely what know we must now yet hope for by faith. We have not seen our names written down in the Lamb's Book of Life, nor have we heard those words, "Well done thou good and faithful servant." Until then we do not walk by absolute knowledge or by sight, but rather by faith. Only when we stand before Him in judgment will our faith be turned to absolute knowledge and sight. Until them we have our hope in His promises and hold those promises by faith.
     
  13. steaver

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    I don't believe in the straw men you present. If they did have 'an initial experience' then they would know Jesus and be known of Him. You have created straw men who do not exist. Anyone having the scriptures can examine themselves and know if they are born of God.

    Does the word of God confuse this issue?

    2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Jhn 10:14I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.

    Jhn 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Rom 8:15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


    Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    I am 100% certain Jesus Christ is Lord and I am 100% certain Jesus Christ exist within me. I know this just as the scripture declares one born of God would know.

    How about you HP?

    Is Jesus real to you or not? Do you know Him or not? (These are rhetorical questions, do not think I question yor salvation)

    Your not certain Jesus is Lord?? We walk by faith IN the absolute knowledge we have been given that Jesus is Lord.

    One has to define the object of the faith one is talking about. I have faith in many things that I know exist or know to be true.

    :jesus:
     
  14. BTM

    BTM
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    2 Cor 11:13-15

    For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    This is why the Bible and the Bible alone MUST be our standard of authority. Men are deceived and pass the deception along as truth. They may be sincere, believing a lie, but sincerity does not change lies into truth.

    Be careful. Trust no man.
     
  15. steaver

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    Good research BTM :thumbsup:

    Many brothers and sisters in Christ have passonately taken a stand to preach to other brothers and sisters that they must NOT depend on the death burial and ressurrection of Jesus Christ alone for their righteousness to be saved. Why is this?

    I find the reason is a lack of understanding in just what it means to be born again. If one does a study on every passage that speaks about this rebirth one will discover that being born of God gives one an absolute personal knowledge via the Holy Spirit INDWELLMENT that Jesus is Lord and Saviour. It is a birth. Born of God. That which is born of God is a child of God forever. There is no do this or do that and God will save you. God has provided a rebirth. Why do you think that is? Just for something to do??

    Jhn 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
     

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