1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is God’s Selection Arbitrary?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jun 24, 2007.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    So, He can't know something is going to happen unless He has already predetermined it?
    In other words, He knew you were going to make that post because He planned for you to do so. He predetermined it. If He allowed you the free choice of saying what was on your mind, He wouldn't have known about it beforehand because He didn't predetermine it.

    That makes no sense.
     
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    His foreknowledge specifically refers to His set-upon love for His elect ones . Now that makes sense !
     
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    Only if you think that foreknowledge and predestine mean the same thing, which they do not.
    Can you post the definitions of both words? The we can see what they mean.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'll give you some synonyms of foreknowledge = fore-loved and fore-appointed . The LORD has set His love on those of His choosing -- not on events or actions -- certain people .

    Now I do not think that you gave due deliberation to 1 Peter 1:20 . Study it again in relation to this subject Amy .

    You also have not carefully considered Romans 8:29,30 . " For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son , that he might be the firstborn among many brothers . And those he predestined , he also called ; and those he called , he also justified ; and those he justified ; he lso glorified ." ( NIV )

    Look at Acts 2:23 where Luke says : " this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God , you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men ." ( ESV ) The foreknowledge here is not concerning the act of crucifixion , but of the Person crucified . And , likewise the LORD foreknows His people as persons -- not their actions -- what they would do . ( On a sidebar note I feel compelled to add Acts 4:28 as a link to Acts 2:23. It just hammers home the same idea ) .

    God's decree or "definite plan" is the basis of His foreknowledge .

    On another thread recently I was referencing Ezekiel 16 about unfaithful Jerusalem . Well , just like that baby lying abandoned in its filth so we as His children were graciously picked up out of the field by Him . We are His Bride -- but had nothing desirable in us . He should have loathed us , but instead He has loved us .

    In summation -- the LORD has fore-loved us . He has graciously set His love on us ( the elect ) by His sovereign , distinguishing good pleasure .

    I think all of this calls for an AMEN !
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    In the Calvinist model It is "just too hard to be God" if HE really just let's "Whosoever will" go to heaven without making them do it so that He KNOWS who they are. --- Calvinism has offerred to give God some much needed "help" so He can do it the way a Calvinist would do it if HE/SHE were God.

    As much as that is a great offer of Help - there is no text to support it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Question -- Does God have Free Will?

    Question - Is Christ God? Did Christ have free will?

    Did foreknowing Christ in any way limit His free will?

    Hint: The Fact that God's battle plan - His gospel is worked out ahead of time in predicting "the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow" does mean that Christ was not "randomly selected to be the Savior" among all humans - rather HE was SENT here for that purpose. However God does not say "they decided to Crucify Christ in obedience to God's plan for them" -- RATHER the argument is made that they who crucified Christ were stubbornly disobedient no matter What God tried to do to reach them !!

    1John 2
    3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
    4 The one who says, ""
    I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;

    5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
    6 the one who says he abides in Him
    ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]


    Clearly the Bible delcares that God’s purpose is that we obey – and He declares of those who do not obey – “They rejected God’s Purpose for themselves”.

    Luke 7
    30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
    31 "To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?
    32 "They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say,
    'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang
    a dirge, and you did not weep.'
    33 "For John the baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!'
    34 "The
    Son of Man has come eating and drinking
    , and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
    35 "Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."



    Matt 23
    37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
    How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
    38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
    39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"


    The Bible never argues the Calvinist point “They refused Me just as I directed them to” or “They refused my will for them because I did not predestine them to accept it”

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Jun 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2007
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Romans 8
    28 And we know that
    God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
    29 For those
    whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image
    of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
    30 and [b
    ]these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[/b]

    [/quote]

    Whom He “foreknew” He “predestined” to what destination? To become conformed to the image of His Son!
    God first foreknows the future – the choices of mankind given God’s sovereign decision from eternity past to give free will to created beings – including Lucifer.


    Some Christian’s man-made-tradition supposes that God does not "foreknow ALL" just the "arbitrarily select few" - but THAT IS NEVER the definition of "FOREKNOW" in all of scripture!! In numerous places the Bible shows that God foreknows not only the wicked deeds of mankind – but also who it is that will do them!

    Some have argued "Whom He predestined THESE are the ones He then foreknew" - But that is not what scripture says here.!

    As Rippon said regarding predestination "God's decree or "definite plan is the basis of His foreknowledge" .



    1 Peter 1
    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
    2 according to the foreknowledge
    of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey[/b] Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.[/quote]

    Here Peter tells us that we are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God[/b] and that we have specifically been “Chosen to Obey” Jesus Christ. We are also told that obedience is done by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in the saints.

    By contrast Calvinism tries to imagine that God turns OFF foreknowledge – Rather He First “SELECTS” or “Predestines” based on arbitrary selection (called unconditional election) then turns foreknowledge back on to SEE how it all works out.

    But the text says that FIRST comes foreknowledge of the future. Foreknowledge of those who will choose life and then God determines that their DESTINY will be to be become conformed to the image of His Son in obedience and in glorification at the 2nd coming. The Bible never says “Some do not obey because they were not predestined to obey” neither does it say “some are not sanctified because they were not predestined to be sanctified” neither does it say “some are not foreknown because they were not predestined to be foreknown” – yet THESE are the arguments of Calvinism today!


    1John 2
    3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]
    4 The one who says, ""
    I have come to know Him,'' and [b]does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;

    5 but whoever keeps His word[/b], in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
    6 the one who says he abides in Him
    ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]


    Clearly the Bible delcares that God’s purpose is that we obey – and He declares of those who do not obey – “They rejected God’s Purpose for themselves”.

    Luke 7
    30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
    31 "To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like?
    32 "They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say,
    'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang
    a dirge, and you did not weep.'
    33 "For John the baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!'
    34 "The
    Son of Man has come eating and drinking
    , and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
    35 "Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."



    Matt 23
    37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
    How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
    38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
    39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"


    The Bible never argues the Calvinist point “They refused Me just as I directed them to” or “They refused my will for them because I did not predestine them to accept it”
     
    #27 BobRyan, Jun 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2007
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    UNLESS you are among those who are not "fore-loved" or have children that you love but THEY are not "fore-loved" by God --

    THIS is where the "Calvinist future scenario" comes from friends!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    How can anyone reject the will of God unless God has granted them a will of their own, free to choose?
    I have heard Calvinists say many times that if it is the will of God for "all" to be saved (as the "freewillers" say), then God has failed. Yet, this verse clearly says that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God. By their own logic they are saying that God failed.

    It is not God that fails, but man.

    When people stand before Christ in the judgement, they cannot say "its' not my fault I rejected You because You predetermined I would". No, God will hold them accountable for their own decisions because He has created them with a personal will of their own.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Calvinism spins words around in scripture like a fraudulent marketing campaign you might find today.

    "You rejected my Will for you" and by that I mean I did not WILL you to accept it
    (And of course THAT part of My will you complied with PERFECTLY)

    "I so love the WORLD" and by that I mean the world of the FEW people I decide to love just not the WORLD of "people in the WORLD"
     
    #30 BobRyan, Jun 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2007
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    BR , you really need to get a grip . No one , least of all Christ was "randomly selected ."

    "...no matter what God tried to do to reach them." What kind of Christians are saying this ? Do you believe God attempts things , but fails to achieve what He desires ? If so you have a mountain of biblical weight against you .

    God is obviously omniscient . Calvinists have never maintained that God doesn't know everything and everyone in an infinite sense . It is just that His love is set on some from eternity past -- that's His foreknowledge . He will indeed say to a great number on that Day : "I have never known you ." That is , He has never set His love on them .

    Those whom He has predestinated are indeed the very same individuals that He foreknew -- no other group is in view in Romans 8:29,30 .

    Foreknowledge is not some mere knowledge of the future . This nonsense of God knowing who will choose and after absorbing that data determining their destiny is rubbish .

    Obviously since God foreknows some -- it means that He did not set His love on others . He did not "know" the reprobate .

    God has not failed in any way . Tell me what Calvinist has said that reprobates would have the unmitigated gall to tell God in the Great Judgment -- that it wasn't their fault ? Of course God will hold them accountable for their sin --- that is what sends anyone to hell .

    The LORD has indeed decided to love some out of the mass of human history . He has the perfect right to choose as few or as many as He so desires . He is God . You are not the Most High . He doesn't need your approval . He is under obligation to no one . He is not like you . He doesn't do things your way . We are talking about His mercy here BR . Pardon me if He sees fit to not follow the BR plan of redemption .

    Where in all of Calvinistic literature have you at any time seen statements saying that God turns off foreknowledge and turns it back again to see how it all works out ? Your convoluted language and thinking rivals that of Skypair's .
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Nonsequitter sir. I already claim that Christ was NOT randomly selected but rather was foredetermined to be sent to be the substitutionary atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

    "God so Loved the WORLD that He gave..." remember??

    Is this the part where you repsond to and exegete Luke 7 or simply ignore i and pretend "I am the author" of that inconvenient part of scripture?

    Foreknew them "to what"? To choose Christ?

    Or do you mean to sping foreknowing something about the future into "First arbitrary selecting some to be saints THEN foreknowing their choices"??

    And the proof for that wild assumption??

    Another wild Calvinist assumption???

    Let me "guess" this second assumption is the PROOF for the first wild assumption -- INSTEAD of an actual Bible text.

    How unsatisfying sir.

    But he FOREKNEW the actions of the reprobate and rebellious as Acts 2 points out in the crucifixion of Christ.

    God said "God so Loved the WORLD that HE gave.."

    The Arminian adds "YES -- REALLY!"

    The Calvinist contradicts with
    Then when the Arminian points out that this downsized edit of the word of God is in stark contradiction with what GOD said "God so Loved the WORLD that HE gave"... "NOT willing for ANY to perish but that ALL should come to repentance"..."Christ who coming into the world enlightens EVERY man"

    THe Calvinist responds as thouh these texts are the product of Arminian writing and not found in scripture at all.

    IT is as if the Calvinist view takes actual joy in its efforts to refute those texts of scripture.

    The "So loved SOME" argument from Calvinism is WHY there is a "Future Calvinist Scenario" posted so often on this board.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,354
    Likes Received:
    26
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The purpose of this post is to express my opinion about some of the philosophical technicalities associated with foreknowledge and pre-destination. This post will not defend certain claims that it makes - that might come later - specifically my claim that foreknowledge does not necessitate predestination.

    I assume that for an agent such as God to have foreknowledge of event X, this means that the agent knows that X will occur, in advance of X actually happening.

    I assume that for an agent such as God to predestine event X, this means that the agent causes X to take place.

    Now it is rather obvious obvious that if God predestines X, he also foreknows X. I assume that no one will dispute this.

    On the other hand, I believe that God can indeed foreknow event X without pre-destining event X. I used to believe otherwise, but I am now convinced that an agent can have foreknowledge of some event without playing a causal role in that event coming to pass.

    The argument is rather lengthy and I will not provide it in this post.

    Now I have a question for Rippon. You seem to be arguing that "to foreknow is to pre-destine". Is this the case? If so, I think that it is a difficult case to make. On the other hand, one can believe that God pre-destines Fred to salvation for some reason other than relying on Scriptural statements that God fore-knows that Fred will be saved combined with a belief that such foreknowledge logically implies pre-destination.

    So which, if either, of the following best describes your (Rippon's) position:

    A. Scripture tells us that God foreknows who will be saved and since foreknowledge necessarily implies predestination, then God predestines some to salvation.

    B. Scripture supports the doctrine of predestination in a manner that does not require use of the "foreknowledge implies predestination" argument.

    I hope that you understand what I am driving at. I think position A is untenable because I think it depends on what I think is a false belief - that foreknowledge implies predestination. I do not agree with B either, but that is a whole other matter.

    So I guess the thrust of this post is to assert that foreknowledge does not necessitate predestination. Fred could be foreknown by God to "freely" accept the accept the gift of salvation - there is nothing conceptually inchorent with such a position. Just because God foreknows that Fred will be saved, this in and of itself does not warrant the conclusion that Fred was "pre-destined" to be saved, that He had "no choice" but to end up saved.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Rather I think that in Romans 8 what is predestined is that those who are saved - those who CHOOSE to accept the Gospel are predestined to "Become CONFORMED to the image of His Son" in other words the point is "what does God DO with those who are saved once they come to Christ"?

    Foreknowledge is a reference to His foreknowing what they will do -

    Predestination in the Romans 8 context is His having a PLAN for the saved to walk in sanctification.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Read My Walkington Thread

    BR and others of a similar mindset : I have to conclude that a veil is over your heart and mind regarding the biblical data . I would just be repeating myself and go over the same turf again . So , I'd advise you to read my A.W.Pink quotes for your spiritual nourishment .
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    It seems like you are not willing to look into the details beyond a certain arm-waving sweep generalization.

    rebellious as Acts 2 points out in the crucifixion of Christ.

    God said "God so Loved the WORLD that HE gave.."

    The Arminian adds "YES -- REALLY!"

    The Calvinist contradicts with

    Then when the Arminian points out that this downsized edit of the word of God is in stark contradiction with what GOD said "God so Loved the WORLD that HE gave"... "NOT willing for ANY to perish but that ALL should come to repentance"..."Christ who coming into the world enlightens EVERY man"

    THe Calvinist responds as though these texts are the product of Arminian writing and not found in scripture at all.

    IT is as if the Calvinist view takes actual joy in its efforts to refute those texts of scripture and then excuses itself for doing so by pretending that scripture is authored by Arminians (or is it just John 3:16 that you think was written by Arminians?)

    The "So loved SOME" argument from Calvinism is WHY there is a "Future Calvinist Scenario" posted so often on this board.
     
    #36 BobRyan, Jun 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2007
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0

    HP: You exhibit great insight. Both Scripture and reason testify that morality cannot be necessitated.

    I would say that God does in fact predestinate us, but that predestination does not necessitate the outcome, for God has predestinated us in perfect harmony with freedom of the will. God can indeed foreknow matters of perfect choice, and predestinate in such a way as to envelope the freedom of the will He designed and created us with.
     
  18. mman

    mman New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2005
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    0
    God is no respector of persons (Rom 2:11). His desire is for all men everywhere to be saved (I Tim 2:4). He does not want any to perish but for all to come to repentance (II Pet 3:9).

    Before there was a sinner, there was a Savior. Before there was a world, there was a plan. The church is according to the ETERNAL purpose of God (Eph 3:8-11). The plan was predestined, the Savior was predestined, the fact that some would accept this salvation was predestined, but the individuals themselves were not predestined. If they were, would that not make God a respector of person?
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: No, not if God predestined them according to His foreknowledge of matters of perfect choice they would make. I understand that such foreknowledge is not like that which man possess, but still the same it is within our scope of possibilities to understand and accept that such a foreknowledge indeed does exist with an Infinite God.
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A Flash From The Past

    Hmm , I discovered this thread recently . I read this particular post to find out what I was going to say -- not bad .:laugh:
     
Loading...