Is God, God?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by stilllearning, Jul 10, 2014.

  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning
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    If you’re a Christian, and you believe that God is truly “GOD”, than you should be Kjonly!
    Because any Christian that “truly believes” that God is “The Almighty, One True Living God”, should accept the premise that GOD, would not leave His people “perpetually” dependant upon some group of scholars to know what HIS WORD actually says.

    If indeed God is truly God, than when He chose to Give us His Word, He would not leave any “question”, as to what HIS WORD truly says!
    He would Supernaturally and providentially keep His Word persevered for us!
     
  2. RLBosley

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  3. Scarlett O.

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  4. stilllearning

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    You can know when an argument is truly sound, by the way it’s retractors respond to it.
     
  5. InTheLight

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    Human reasoning, and faulty reasoning at that, on display here. Nothing to see, move on...
     
  6. Van

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    I think the OP assertion, that God did this or that, without support from scripture, is not truly sound.

    1) Did God reveal His attributes through what He has made?

    2) Did God reveal Himself by inspiring scripture?

    3) Did God preserve His message in only one English translation?

    Please go back and put some meat on those bones, and then perhaps you will realize you have no spiritual meat to back up #3. :)
     
  7. annsni

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    Your reasoning is exactly why I am NOT KJVO.
     
  8. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    So, God did not give His word to the world until 1611, and then only to speakers of one single language.

    Is that a God who is God?
     
  9. stilllearning

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    Hello Van
    Thank you for your serious response.

    1) Did God reveal His attributes through what He has made?
    Yes

    2) Did God reveal Himself by inspiring scripture?
    Yes

    3) Did God preserve His message in only one English translation?
    Absolutely not!
    Although, if “God’s message” is truly verbally inspired(that is every Word was given by God), than this would precipitate that English translations, that “use different words” are to a greater or lesser degree a accurate.

    Now I know the original “words” that were inspired, were written in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. But “I trust” that GOD was able to see to it, that English speaking people were given a trustworthy Bible in their own language.
    (We know this from Luke 4:18-19)

    The argument being made in my OP, is that the notion; (That “an accurate Bible”, is something that will always be kept out of our reach....), is in itself, casting doubt upon the Character of God!
     
  10. stilllearning

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    Hello again C4K

    You know very well, that this is not what I am saying.

    There is nothing special about English, except for the fact that this is the only language that I am able to understand. But God saw to it, to give English speaking people his Word in 1382, using Wycliffe.

    And for 500 years(until 1881), this English translation(being basically the same as the KJB), was overwhelmingly recognized as being “God’s preserved Word” to all English speaking people. They were never called KJB ONLY; They were simply called, “Bible believers”.
     
  11. Van

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    Not sure how Jesus reading Isaiah supports translation accuracy, but I will concur that the passage teaches the transmission of the inspired words of Isaiah had been accomplished such that they accurately reflected God's message in the 1st Century. Further, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that our copies of Isaiah today are almost exactly the same as those existing in the 1st Century. But transmission of the inspired text in the original language is not at issue.

    You also recognized that any translation to a greater or lesser degree is inaccurate.

    But then you said that to point out what we think are inaccuracies in the KJV disparages the character of God. For example, I believe the NASB95 is the best most accurate English translation of God's inspired word. Would it be Christ-like to say anyone who disagrees with me disparages the character of God? Nope.
     
    #11 Van, Jul 10, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014
  12. Logos1560

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    Your argument does not hold up since a consistent application of it would condemn a KJV-only view. Your argument may actually be a form of a fallacy [a false argument], making it invalid.

    The word of God was translated into English before 1611, but English-speaking believers before 1611 evidently did not truly have the word of God according to a KJV-only theory.

    A KJV-only theory would leave God's people dependent upon some exclusive group of Church of England scholars in 1611 to know what HIS WORD actually says.

    A KJV-only theory would undermine or in effect deny the greater authority of the preserved Scriptures in the original languages to be used as the standard for the making and trying of all translations.
     
  13. Logos1560

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    Does a KJV-only view suggest that God was not able to see to it that English-speaking people were given a trustworthy Bible in their own language in the 1300's Wycliffe's Bible?

    Does a KJV-only view suggest that God was not able to see to it that English-speaking people were given a trustworthy Bible in their own language in the 1535 Coverdale's Bible?

    Does a KJV-only view suggest that God was not able to see to it that English-speaking people were given a trustworthy Bible in their own language in the 1537 Matthew's Bible?

    Does a KJV-only view suggest that God was not able to see to it that English-speaking people were given a trustworthy Bible in their own language in the 1560 Geneva Bible?

    Where do the Scriptures suggest that God would show partiality or respect of persons only to English-speaking believers after 1611?

    Was the 1611 edition of the KJV actually completely trustworthy when it had several errors in it that later needed to be corrected?

    The same greater authority of the preserved Scriptures in the original languages that was used to revise and change many many renderings in the pre-1611 English Bibles and to correct some errors in the 1611 edition of the KJV can also be used to revise and change some poor or inaccurate renderings in present KJV editions.
     
  14. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    So since the Wycliff and the KJV are different (they are far less then same than the KJV and NKJV) how do you know which one is perfect? When there is conflict which one to you go to?

    And even then would God really deprive the world of His word until 1382?
     
  15. Logos1560

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    There are more and greater differences between the Latin Vulgate-based Wycliffe's Bible and the KJV than there are between the KJV and the NKJV and perhaps even some other present English Bibles.

    Along with its use at Matthew 3:2, this rendering "penance" is also found other times in Wycliffe's (Matt. 21:29; 21:32; Mark 6:12; Luke 5:32; 13:3, 5; 15:7, etc.). Do KJV-only advocates agree with the rendering "priests" instead of "elders" in Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 in Wycliffe's Bible? At Matthew 3:6, Wycliffe's Bible has "and they were christened of him in Jordan." It read "Jesus christened" at Luke 3:21 and “christened“ at Acts 18:8. The rendering "sacrament" can be found in Wycliffe's Bible at Ephesians 1:9, 3:3, 3:9, 5:32; Colossians 1:27, 1 Timothy 3:16, and Revelation 1:20 and 17:7. It has “deacon” (Luke 10:32) instead of “Levite” and “bishops” (John 7:45, 11:47, 18:3) instead of “chief priests.“ Wycliffe’s has “Christ” (1 Sam. 2:10, 2 Sam. 23:1, Ps. 2:2) where the KJV has “anointed” and “Jesus” (Hab. 3:18) where the KJV has “salvation.“ Wycliffe's has "maiden" instead of "virgin" at Luke 1:27 and “old women in holy habit“ at Titus 2:3 instead of “aged women.” Wycliffe's Bible has the rendering "Calvary" from the Latin Vulgate's Calvariae at Matthew 27:33 and Mark 15:22 where the KJV does not. Wycliffe's Bible has “Isaiah the prophet“ (Mark 1:2), “fruit of light“ (Eph. 5:9), "dread of Christ" (Eph. 5:21), and “eagle“ (Rev. 8:13). The 1395 edition of Wyclife’s has “five thousand” at 1 Kings 4:32 where the KJV has “a thousand and five.“ At 2 Kings 14:17, the 1395 edition of Wycliffe’s has “five and twenty years” where the KJV has “fifteen years.“ Clearly, many words or renderings in the Wycliffe's Bible are different from those in the KJV.


    Wycliffe’s Bible omitted “for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever“ (Matt. 6:13), "Jesus saith unto them" (Matt. 13:51), "wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 25:13), “spoken by Daniel the prophet“ (Mark 13:14), “But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work“ (Rom. 11:6), and “and in your spirit, which are God‘s“ (1 Cor. 6:10). It added: "taught them of the kingdom of God" (Matt. 21:17), "and he shall increase" (Luke 19:26), “and he saith to his disciples” (John 13:38 or 14:1), “of Jesus“ (Acts 16:7), and “after the purpose of God‘s grace“ (Rom. 4:5). At Matthew 24:41, this addition is in Wycliffe's: "twain in one bed, the one shall be taken and the other left." The following was added at John 7:28: "I know him, and if I shall say for I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar." At Acts 14:7, there is this addition: “and all the multitude was moved together in the teaching of them.“ At Acts 15:41, it added: “commanding to keep the hests of apostles and elder men.“ Wycliffe’s has this addition at Acts 18:4: “putting among the name of the Lord Jesus.“ At 2 John 11, it added: "Lo, I before said to you that ye be not confounded in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." At Revelation 9:11, it added the following: “And by Latin he has the name Exterminans, that is, a destroyer.“ Other differences (additions and omissions) in Wycliffe's could be given. For example, there are additions in the 1395 edition of Wycliffe’s at Proverbs 4:27, 6:11, and 15:5.

    Both the early edition of Wycliffe’s Bible and the later edition also have some additions that seem to be explanations of words used in the text. Glenn Conjurske observed: “The glosses in the early version are very plentiful, and most of them are simply definitions or explanations of words” (Olde Paths, Oct., 1994, p. 228). A few examples from the later edition are here offered as evidence. After “delium” at Genesis 2:12, the 1395 Wycliffe Bible added: “that is, a tree of spicerie.” At Exodus 17:13, the 1395 Wycliffe Bible has the following rendering with explanation in the text: “in the mouth of sword, that is, by the sharpness of the sword.” At the end of Numbers 21:3 after “Hormah,“ several words were added in the later Wycliffe’s [“that is, cursing, either hanging up”]. After “great” at Deuteronomy 4:7, the 1395 Wycliffe Bible has this addition: “not in number either in bodily quantity, but in dignity.”


    In his introduction to a modern-spelling edition of Wycliffe’s N. T., Stephen P. Westcott pointed out that the earlier edition of Wycliffe’s followed the Latin word order and sentence structure at 1 Samuel 21:10 [reference should be 2:10] (p. xviii). Its rendering was “The Lord should dread the adversaries of him.” By following the Latin order, in effect this rendering reversed the meaning of the phrase. The later edition as seen in the 1395 Wycliffe’s changed the phrase to “Adversaries of the Lord should dread him.”

    This Bible rendered the Latin Vulgate at Psalm 23:1a as follows: "Our Lord governeth me." At Genesis 36:24, Wycliffe's has "hot waters" as does the Douay-Rheims instead of "mules," the KJV rendering. Some of the examples in the earlier paragraphs showed that Wycliffe's Bible included some Vulgate readings in its text. MacGregor confirmed that the translation in the Wycliffe Bible follows the text of the Latin Vulgate “very closely” (Literary History, p. 79). This evidence also suggests that Wycliffe’s differs more from the KJV than does Webster's, the NKJV, the MKJV, KJ21, or KJ2000. H. T. W. Wood maintained: “There is much more difference between Wiclif and Tyndale, than between Tyndale and the Authorized Version” (Changes in the English Language, p. 55). Therefore, the fact that many KJV-only advocates can accept or commend Wycliffe’s Bible when it differs more from the KJV than some present English translations points out serious inconsistencies in KJV-only reasoning.


    There would be basically the same only in the same sense that other present English Bibles would be basically the same.

    There are the same type differences involving differences in number of words and in meaning of words between the pre-1611 English Bibles and the KJV as there are between the KJV and present English Bibles.

    You evidently have never carefully compared the pre-1611 English Bibles and the KJV.
     
  16. stilllearning

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    Hi Van
    I hope you realize how glad I am, that you are willing take a stand for what you believe and respond to my posts. This is the only way that I have any hope of being corrected, if I am wrong in any area.

    You asked........
    “Not sure how Jesus reading Isaiah supports translation accuracy,...”

    It doesn’t; But it does support the fact that God wants us to have a Bible in our own language. The way it does this is the fact, that on this day, “Jesus” was quoting Isaiah from an Old Testament that had been translated into Greek(LXX). Thus placing His stamp of approval on the practice of “translating God’s Word into vulgar languages”.
    ------------------------
    You also said........
    “But transmission of the inspired text in the original language is not at issue.”

    Brother I am afraid that this is the issue. At the bottom of the KJBonly argument, is Greek New Testament. Back when all Christians everywhere agreed that the “Textus Receptus” was God’s Word for the New Testament, there was NO ARGUMENT about what God said to us in the New Testament.

    But about 120 years ago, that all changed; And from that point on, more and more doubt Is being cast upon “God’s Word”, to the point that today, most Christians do not believe that the Bible that they hold in their hand, is actually God’s perfectly preserved Word!
    ------------------------
    Next you said......
    “You also recognized that any translation to a greater or lesser degree is inaccurate.”

    I didn’t exactly say that. This is what I said........
    “Although, if “God’s message” is truly verbally inspired(that is every Word was given by God), than this would precipitate that English translations, that “use different words” are to a greater or lesser degree a accurate.”

    What I meant by that statement is when it comes to translations that are accurately translated from the original languages(the Masoretic Text and the Textus Receptus), will never need to be replaced(because the original languages aren’t changing). But what we are seeing today, are new translations being produced that are using different words(than were used to in that 1st translation). Therefore these additional translations are(among themselves), to a greater or lesser degree a accurate.

    Now, every “living” language changes; Just as English has and is changing. In that respect, it would be nice to have a new English Bible, that was accurately translated from the original languages, but alas this can not happen. Just as Jesus warned us in Matthew 24:3-4 and then later gave us more light on this warning in 2Timothy 3:13; It is clear that the vast majority of “scholars” can not be trusted with God’s precious Word.

    Yes, the KJB is God’s perfectly preserved Word. But how should we measure perfection in a Bible?
    Is perfection effected by “misspelled words”? No
    Does it’s perfection apply to “choices in word translation”(Acts 4:12)? No
    But does it apply to “removing entire verses or passages”....
    “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:19)
    ------------------------
    You also said........
    “But then you said that to point out what we think are inaccuracies in the KJV disparages the character of God.”

    I didn’t exactly say that either; This is what I said.......
    “The argument being made in my OP, is that the notion; (That “an accurate Bible”, is something that will always be kept out of our reach....), is in itself, casting doubt upon the Character of God!”

    For instance; If someone said that the crossing at the Red sea, could not have been on dry ground, because “God was not able to do that”...
    Would this be casting doubt upon the Character of God? Yes

    So to say, that God was unable to perfectly preserve His Word for us, seems to be doing the same thing.
    ------------------------
    Lastly you said........
    For example, I believe the NASB95 is the best most accurate English translation of God's inspired word. Would it be Christ-like to say anyone who disagrees with me disparages the character of God? Nope.”

    I will have to think about this question for a while.
     
  17. stilllearning

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    Hello Logos1560 and thank you for all of your insightful responses.
    I have got to go now, but I am anxious to see, how I am going to respond to them.

    See you later
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    Only a God of our own vain imagings, someone that we made up!
     
  19. preachinjesus

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    I'm just sad for all those non-English speaking Christians who have never had access to the truth of the King James Version. They all must be headed to eternal damnation.
     
  20. Alcott

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    If you believe the Word of God, you are not KJVO because the Word does not teach such.
     

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