Is God the First Cause of Sin?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 23, 2007.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    I raised the question in another thread about the first cause of sin, but so far have seemingly hit a snag. Let me ask the question in a thread designated only for this important question. We know that every effect has a cause, and sin is an effect. The question concerns who or what is the cause.

    Who or what is the first cause of sin? Is it God, being the Eternal First cause, the rightful cause of sin, or is it man or other sentient beings such as fallen angels, or something else the cause of sin?
     
  2. I Am Blessed 24

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    The first cause of sin is the same as it is today...our free will.
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    Since you have already formulated your opinion and likely your defense of it, why don't you just state it. I grow weary of questions for which the author seeks no answer. We can then know your position and if we wish to, comment.
     
  4. soninme

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    god didnt or doesnt cause man to sin , that is our choice , its called free will .
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Precisely stated. I agree fully. :thumbs:

    Now, the question remains concerning the logical implications of that belief. The first glaring implication is that God has created being with the capacity to be a creator, the first cause of their intents. As such, God is indeed Just to predicate blame and praise for the formation of such ‘first cause’ intents. The second thing I can see is that if we are indeed the first cause of our intents today, we are not under coercion to form them in any specific way. We can form them according to benevolence or we can form them according to selfishness. Only as man is able and in possession of the ability to choose something other than he does under the very same set of circumstances can freedom be predicated of ones formed intents.

    The problem for those that might not believe that man is the first cause of his intents is that there remains only one place to predicate responsibility for them as I see it and that is with God. Where ever one places the cause, therein is the proper seat of responsibility.
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Does anything control or determine the choices of man other than the will of man itself? Are you certain his will is free? For instance, does whatever is denoted as 'his nature' determine the outcome of his will? Just asking. :)
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Oh, but the author does in fact seek an answer from it. I would like to hear yours. :)
     
    #7 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2007
  8. hillclimber1

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    Sorry, but it's our old sin nature. Our free will allows us choice.
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Either the will is free of it is controlled. You cannot have it both ways. If our nature controls the will, who or what controls and or determines our nature?
     
  10. ReformedBaptist

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    You want an answer to argue against it, as evidenced by your reply to this poster. So why don't you just answer the question you posed since you are not really seeking information but a debate.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Did you get any sleep last night? I have answered the question if you would just read my responses, and what is so shocking about seeking a debate on a debate forum??

    What is so revealing about your position that you avoid answering such a simple and straight forward question? If your answer looks absurd in print, possibly you need to re-think your position. This forum always all of us the rethink and reshape our opinions. :)
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

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    I have a pet peeve against non-question questions. That is the impression I got form your OP. I rested well last night, so thanks for asking. I have no problem with posing as a question a topic to begin discussion.

    And I would beg to differ with you...this is not a debate thread...it is a discussion forum where debates do often happen, but are not necessary.

    Nevertheless, I do not want to detract from you topic. HP, I have seen you try to use skills in debate and logic to win arguments. I am never impressed by this. It smacks of the wisdom of men which the Gospel itself does not come in.

    Therefore, this rhetoric "What is so revealing about your position that you avoid answering such a simple and straight forward question? If your answer looks absurd in print, possibly you need to re-think your position. This forum always all of us the rethink and reshape our opinions." is empty and rife with evil speculation. Do you think you gain anything (and I would to God that in your supposed defense of truth, you seeking to gain your brethren and not win arguments) by such speak? Or do you mean to try to provoke me into a controversy with you?

    I suggest you give up such childish remarks. If I wish to reply to your questions and topic I will. If not, I will not. I will consider a reply to the topic and pray about it. You have my apologies for this slight diversion from the topic at hand.
     
  13. Amy.G

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    Just MHO, but since we were created in the image of God, I believe that image extends to the will.
    Where there is only one thing, there can be no choice, but where there are two or more things, there must be a choice by neccessity.

    God gave Adam and Eve a decision to make, a choice between 2 things. Follow God or follow Satan.

    True love can only exist where there is a choice.

    God wants (desires) true love from His children.

    Even though we have sinful natures or whatever you want to call it (because of Adam's sin), God has not left us to ourselves to seek Him, but has always provided help in the form of general revelation through His creation, the prophets, His written word, His Son who walked the earth, His Holy Spirit who draws all men to Himself.

    I believe (MHO), that God is creating for Himself a family. One that has chosen Him and truly loves Him. Just as He created the nation of Israel from one man, Abraham, He is creating an eternal family from one man, Adam.

    When all is said and done, God will have an eternal family who has rejected Satan and his lies and who truly love and worship the Lord who gave them life.

    No debate, just my thoughts based on my own interpretation of scripture. :)
     
    #13 Amy.G, Sep 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2007
  14. ReformedBaptist

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    Hey Amy, I trust you are doing well in the Lord. Question here, wouldn't the free-will of mankind be at least limited to God's government over it?

    Did the nation of Israel choose God, or did God choose Israel? Then, did we choose God and so love Him, or did He choose us and so we love Him? And what of the creation of us in Christ? We are no longer in Adam my dear sister, but in Christ. The new creation is after of the image of Christ, not Adam.


    Look at the Scriptures regarding the new creation. Galatians, Ephesians, and Colossians are good places to start.
     
  15. webdog

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    Just wanted to comment on this question. God sovereignly choosing a nation through which mankind will be redeemed is not the same thing as choosing someone for salvation.
     
  16. Amy.G

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    Hi RB.
    Doing well. Thank you for asking. Hope you are well too. :)

    I do believe that God is sovereign and that we are only as free as He allows, much like the arrangement we have with our own children.


    God created Israel, so I guess that makes them chosen, but not all of Israel was saved, even though they (the nation) are called the chosen of God.
    Within the chosen nation, many will be lost because of their individual rejection of God. Unless you believe that every single Jew that ever lived is saved? :)

    Yes, we are new creatures in Christ because we accepted His offer of salvation.
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    Can you explain how God chose a nation without repsect to persons?
     
  18. ReformedBaptist

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    Does God's sovereignty extend into the heart of man? Surely it does, but we cannot do that with our children. For example, a king's heart is in the hand of the Lord. He turns it whichever way He wishes, and sometimes has so done it that the king was not even aware of it!

    Indeed God separated Israel according to His will and His purpose.

    So are you saying that we were created according to our will or according to God's? How can a person participate in the creation of God?
     
  19. webdog

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    Easily. God could have very well chosen Ishmael over Isaac...Esau over Jacob, but He didn't. He "unconditionally" elected who He did to serve His purpose. He didn't "unconditionally elect" individuals to salvation. From these individuals, God's chosen nation came about. From His chosen, Christ came...and those in Christ are hence "chosen".
     
  20. Amy.G

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    Well said.
     

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