Is Hell, Eternal Torture?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Caissie, Mar 28, 2004.

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Is Hell, Eternal Torture?

  1. Hell is eternal torture

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  2. Hell is not eternal torture

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  3. Other (please explain)

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  1. Caissie

    Caissie
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    Some one told me one time that Hell was not eternal torture. What is your view on Hell (with scriptures to back it.)

    Thanks
     
  2. Phillip

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    Matthew 18:8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut if off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. NKJV (Jesus talking)

    Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. NKJV (Jesus talking)

    Hebrew 6:1-2 (1)Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentence from dead works and of faith toward God. (2) of the doctrine of baptisms of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.

    Mark 9:42-43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut if off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched---where
    Their worm does not die,
    And the fire is not quenched. NKJV (Jesus talking)

    Luke 16:19-End of chapter rich man begs for mercy to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue for He am tormented in this flame....His brothers -- lest they also come to this place of torment. (my brief remarks from NKJV -- read from Bible -- also Jesus talking in Bible) My remark: This shows that the fire is not going to burn somebody up. He is still living.

    Revelations 21:10 The devil, who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NKJV)


    Old Testament:

    Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth and look
    Upon the corpses of the men
    Who have transgressed against Me.
    For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched.
    They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (NKJV)

    Need more? ;)
     
  3. The Right Way

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    The NT delivers 2 versions of Hell. The Greek and Jewish hells. As you would suspect, the Jewish hell is eternal fire, the Greek Hades version is more of prison type hell with possibility of parole... (something the Catholics chose to run with). The two versions conflict in the NT and forces us all to just pick one that we like most.

    I pick eternal torture because it converts more souls than a vacation in Las Vegas type Hades.

    But who knows for sure, you will get both kinds of answers on that question with support only in limited context (scripture-wise). Good arguments can be made for both type hells. Since it is unclear, the hell issue may not really matter that much in the Christian walk. Fear of hell can convert but can't hold a Christian to the faith, only the loving of Christ can do that. Fear is not the answer, hell is old school, Love is NT.
     
  4. Phillip

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    And your professor was probably fairly liberal :D
     
  5. dr396

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    I take issue with the statement made by The Right Way saying hell is old school and the NT is love. Have you read the Gospels lately? Jesus uses Hell as a means of calling people to repent very often. Here are a few. Go look them up immediately.

    Matthew
    5:30
    7:13, 19-23
    8:10-12
    10:14-15, 28
    11:21-24
    12:33-37
    13:36-43, 49-50
    16:24-27
    18:7-9
    21:33-44
    22:1-13
    25:1-30, 31-46

    Luke
    all parallel accounts to the above and
    13:1-5
    16:19-31

    John
    5:25-29
    8:22-24
    12:44-48
    15:1-6

    Hell is a major theme of Jesus as you can clearly see when you look these references up. If it was old school, then so is Jesus. Also Paul uses Hell as a means to call people to repentance often, so he apparently thought it was an effective means of holding a Christian in the faith (which by the way was my experience, so I know that statement is wrong). And the Bible does not conflict, only people are conflicted because they are uniformed and lack the discipline to study the Scriptures closely. Even Karl Barth said that we ought not to view the Scriptures with suspicion, but to assume no contradiction and error within them.

    D.R.
     
  6. Watchman

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    The question is, Is Hell Eternal Torture?
    The answer is, Yes.
    The passages that Phillip and dr396 have given speaks for themselves.
    As has been pointed out, Jesus had more to say about hell than He did about heaven.
    It is not a nice little touchy-feely subject. Gods' word has unpleasant (humanly speaking) subjects in it.
    As to why they must suffer this way, well, take that up with God. My best guess is that this demonstrates how serious God is about sin and how much He detests it.
     
  7. Phillip

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    Amen Watchman, Might I also add that I think in too many churches are afraid to use the "hell and brimstone" messages of the past. People want to go to church, be made to "feel good" for another week. That is today's society and too many churches are catering to it.

    I am NOT saying that hell should be preached to the exlusion of the good, but as mentioned above, Jesus used hell more often than heaven. If it is good enough for Jesus.....

    Remember the sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"? If I am correct on my history, revival broke out over this. Find it on the net and read it. It is not a touchy feely, burn-up quick, hell.

    Finally, there is no conflict between the Old and New Testaments. Jesus said so himself when he said he was here to fulfill the law, not do away with it. Sure, the law was a legalistic requirement that was changed by the grace of God in the New Testament. But, the New Testament agrees with the Old on FACTS....and hell is one of those facts. Just like "God created the Heavens and the Earth".
     
  8. Phillip

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    Another good point on God's reason for hell. Being that God is perfectly righteous, sin and God do not mix.

    This is the reason Jesus' sacrifice was so painful. I would imagine being the Son of God, part of God Himself that having the worlds sin poured on him when he was sacrificed, was a FAR greater anguish than the physical death. I believe this is why he prayed for the Father to remove this cup if possible, but if not have it thine own way. Jesus dreaded that moment God the Father had to turn-his back on his Son -- not standing the sight of sin.

    God has no other option but seperation. I personally think that absolute seperation from God with no reprieve is an ultimate death that may far exceed that of the physical punishment of hell.

    God made hell for sin. A permanent, eternal place of damnation. Man chose to accept the sin. Therefore, the eternal damnation was already "in place" so to speak.

    If God did not love us so much, he would not have sent his Son as a reprieve, for those who believe on him.
     
  9. Audra

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    Do you think God so unmerciful that He would burn and torture people forever?
    I don't think so.
    Jude v.6"And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
    Where do we see now any city burning with fire and having been burning with fire for well over 4,000 years? Answer: We don't. Apparently this means something beside an everburning fire.

    2 Peter 2:6
    "....and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;"
    God destroyed the city because of their ungodliness.

    Mark 6:11
    "And whoever[6:11 NU-Text reads [whatever place.] will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them.[ NU-Text omits the rest of this verse.] ] Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!"
    Sodom and Gomorrah have yet to be judged to whether they go to "hell fire" or not. Hear it from Christ's lips.

    Therefore, my conclusion: no one yet has been judged, that is reserved for the judgement day. Rev. 20:11 "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[3] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[4] 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
    And the only "hell fire" people will see is after they are judged and if they are unrepentant or blatantly do not accept Christ (choose Life).
     
  10. Watchman

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  11. The Right Way

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    I never said there wasn't a hell, I only said there are two definitions of hell in the NT which are in direct conflict with each other. That means one is right and the other must be wrong. You have to figure out which one you want to believe in.

    ps dr396, I have read those verses and many more that you obviously missed. Please explain in detail what the last 8 words of John 3:16 mean. If you understand that verse, you understand the dynamics of the human spirit as well as hell. This verse is of course, backed up by many others defining hell in the same way.
     
  12. Watchman

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    Well, my time for editing expired.
    What I referred to was Rev. 20:10, that is quite clear. If the devil, the beast and the false prophet so suffers there, will everyone else so sent there (vs. 15) have it any diffferently?
    The biblical view of hell is exactly what Charles Taze Russell rejected and his teaching led to the Jehovah's Witness.
     
  13. dr396

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    Right way,

    1. The NT doesn't offer conflicting views of Hell. They can be harmonized rather easily.

    2. I wasn't trying to give you an exhaustive list, but apparently you are still finding them inadequate to reject your position.

    3. I have no clue what you mean by "you will understand the dynamics of the human spirit as well as hell."

    4. John 3:16 is as plain as day. Those who believe in the Son will have eternal life (be with Christ consciously forever in heaven) and so it can be assumed from that text that those who do not believe in the Son do not have eternal life, but rather eternal death, which is eternal conscious torment in hell.

    D.R.
     
  14. dr396

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    Audra,

    Your conclusions lack any real exegesis of the text. Yes there is a day coming of judgement. How that day is fixed (whether in time or outside of it) is a mystery. The martyrs in Revelation 6 seem to suggest that eternal life is a reality now for those who have died in Christ, but those who have not await judgement until the resurrection of the dead.

    And as far as God being unmericiful, you have far too high of a view of man. We all deserve hell. Sin is an infinitely wicked action performed by an infinitely holy God. If it was not so heinous, then Christ would not have had to have endured the cross and His suffering would be for naught.

    D.R.
     
  15. Watchman

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    First, let me state I agree with you whole-heartedly.
    Second, I, no doubt, am the chief of misstatements and typo's, so I am sure you meant to say,
    "Sin is an infinitely wicked action performed AGAINST an infinitely holy God."
    Love in Christ,
    Charles
     
  16. dr396

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    WOW! Yes Watchman I will edited it. Thanks Brother!

    D.R.
     
  17. dr396

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    Ok,

    I couldn't edited it, but I will say it again. Sin is an infinitely wicked action performed AGAINST an infinitely holy God. For that it deserves and infinite punishment. By the way Audra, the burden of proof is upon you to prove that judgement is not eternal, conscious punishment since that has been the interpretation of the church since Christ. To change that you will have to prove that the apostles, Patristics, Church councils, Catholics, Reformers, and Modern-Day Christians are all wrong. That is quite a task. I hope you are up for it.

    D.R.
     
  18. The Right Way

    The Right Way
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    Eternal Death... humm I've heard of eternal life but not eternal death. What verse did you find that term used in? Let's get back to the words actually used in John 3:16 and not your rewriting of scripture with words that don't exist.

    Everlasting Life: Its safe to say this would be unending life; or, no death or act of perishing. Those who believe will live forever, which implied the opposite for those who don't believe. He then specifically defined the implication by claiming those who don't believe would perish, AKA die also known as not living, unconcious, no longer aware.

    If he has meant that it was some drawn out death, he could have used the same adjective that he used with the word life. Everlasting torture or everlasting damnation or something besides just perish which is the same Greek word used over and over to mean a final death.

    Here are some references for you to review. A few verses were included to show a solid meaning of the word apollumi (perish) such as the hair on the head verse. Surely your hair isn't going to eternal torture.

    Strong's Greek Dictionary
    apollumi

    Strong's Greek Dictionary
    Strong's Number: 622
    Transliterated: apollumi
    Phonetic: ap-ol'-loo-mee

    Text: from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

    LVB Luke 11:51
    51. from the murder of Abel to the murder of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the sanctuary.

    LVB Luke 13:1-5
    Luke 13

    1. About this time he was informed that Pilate had butchered some Jews from Galilee as they were sacrificing at the Temple in Jerusalem.
    2. ``Do you think they were worse sinners than other men from Galilee?'' he asked. ``Is that why they suffered?
    3. Not at all! And don't you realize that you also will perish unless you leave your evil ways and turn to God?
    4. ``And what about the eighteen men who died when the Tower of Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem?
    5. Not at all! And you, too, will perish unless you repent.''


    LVB Luke 21:18
    18. But not a hair of your head will perish!


    John 10:28
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    John 11:50
    50. Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
    Acts 5:37
    37. After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
    Acts 8:20
    20. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
    Romans 2:6-12
    6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11. For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    1 Corinthians 8:11
    11. And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
    2 Thessalonians 2:10
    10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2 Peter 3:9
    9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
     
  19. Audra

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    Genesis 4:10 "And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground."

    Revelation 6:9 "When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

    How are the two any different dr396?

    Abel wasn't literally crying from the ground.
     
  20. The Right Way

    The Right Way
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    I think dr396 ran out of support for his one hell theory. Nothing confuses faster than new facts not taken into consideration beforehand.
     

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