Is Hell / Lake of fire a spiritual torment as well

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Roy1, Jun 16, 2004.

  1. Roy1

    Roy1
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    Is hell/ the lake of fire just a place for physical torment. Or is there a spiritual element to it as well. To be blunt, is the dead in sin spirit of those cast into the lake of fire conscious at that time of the eternal torment?

    Let me know what you think?

    Roy.
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    The picture of the man in Hades by Jesus is graphic of the physical/mental/spiritual senses ALL functioning in torment.

    Death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire, continuing (or worsening, if possible) the eternal torment.

    Jesus used graphic terms of burning and not being consumed, of smoke of torment rising forever, of the worm dying not FOR A REASON!

    It is eternal physical, mental and spiritual suffering. This is why the remedy of the Gospel MUST be preached, so that man can be redeemed from such an awful fate.
     
  3. wopik

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    Dr. Bob Griffin

    Those who appeal to Christ’s references to hell or hellfire (gehenna, Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 18:8, 9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 44, 46, 47, 48) to support their belief in eternal torment, fail to recognize an important point.

    As John Stott points out, “The fire itself is termed ‘eternal’ and ‘unquenchable,’ but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proves indestructible.


    Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed for ever, not tormented for ever.


    Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which ‘goes up for ever and ever’ (Revelation 14:11; cf. 19:3).


    Christ’s reference to gehenna does not indicate that hell is a place of unending torment.


    What is eternal or unquenchable is not the punishment but the fire which, as in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, causes the complete and permanent destruction of the wicked, a condition that lasts forever.
     
  4. Marcia

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    Wopik, to be "consumed forever" as you put it, would be eternal torment, would it not? To be in the throes of being consumed by fire but never losing consciousness would be "hell."

    Why would it be odd for what is thrown in the fire to be indestructible? God can make those who to be put in an eternal fire able to be indestructible for that purpose.

    My strongest reason against the belief of annihilationism, aside from the fact that I see scripture teaching it, is that annihilationism ultimately truncates and downgrades God's justice and His wrath on sin and takes away from the sacrfice of Jesus on the cross. Sin against an eternal God demands eternal consequences.
     
  5. Roy1

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    Hi folks,

    Thanks for you input so far.

    This is not a thread about the pros and cons of annihilationism vs eternal torment. But is the spirit alive/ quickened/ conscious, during this time, even before it is annihilated?

    Any verses that come to mind on the matter?

    Roy
     
  6. Me2

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    Roy,

    Hell and the lake of fire are seperate.

    hell is a "spiritual state" whereas an individual chooses to live by the law to become righteous before God.
    they receive the Law from God. Yet resist the law therefore avoiding its consequences of being brought into spiritual death.
    they exist in a state of reprobation.

    this state is chosen of some in this age and will continue throughout the next age as God needs their participation. they are called antichrists and false prophets in the next age. in this age, well they are just "disagreeable christians" [​IMG]

    the lake of fire is a state of righteousness in the next age.
    the participants receive their new spirit, but must be renewed in mind. the knowledge of good and evil will meet and must be understood.
    they will produce good works and be purged of "carnal works". it is the same activities as the elect of today. yet it will involve the elect within the individuals lives such as a mentoring system.

    "torment" in the lake of fire is due to the opposing spirit forces. the reprobates are needed as teaching tools towards error and unrighteousness. as well as the sons of God representing righteousness and truth. the reprobates will remain in such a state until no longer needed by God. which would conclude their purposes when death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire. there are no flames of any sort in the lake of fire or hell. its metaphorical.

    Me2
     
  7. wopik

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    bolderdash !
     
  8. Roy1

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    Me2
    Interesting statement :confused: . I have no idea where you get this from, but that was not what I was looking for. :confused:

    Hell is cast into the lake of fire. But the question is, is the spirit of those cast into the lake of fire, or those in hell at the moment, conscious?

    Wopik, Interesting turn of phrase. ;)

    Roy
     
  9. Me2

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    those standing at the gwt judgement are resurrected saints. they will enter into the lake of fire to renew their mind. this is where the education of the knowledge of good and evil will take place. "works" will be "purged".

    those in hell are the aforementioned vessels of wrath prepared for this purpose. which is to be witnesses before those in the lake. they are witnesses of unrighteousness. they teach error. they are not part of the lake. they are in the "air" above the lake. (serious metaphores here)

    Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    they serve God by being teachers of the law. of being self righteousness and examples of lawlessness. this is their time, their purpose, the environment that they are designed to operate in. yet they do this in ignorance of the truth of God. also they are held in this state of reprobation by God until their service has been completed.
    this is your "spiritual position called hell"

    what is called torment is fear. fear of one day facing the God you serve. (remember they are in a state of ignorance yet viewing mercy being continual and without fail applied to those in the lake)

    after their service is complete, then they will succumb to the law. admit they are sinners against God. be placed in death. be resurrected stand before the GWT cast into the lake and be renewed in their minds concerning the knowledge of good and evil.

    as well as this is the same time satan is released from the "bottomless pit"
    death and hell are thrown into the lake as well as satan himself. ethen evry knee shall bow every tongue confessing Jesus is lord.
    for he will have proven in the history of Gods creation that righteousness is greater than unrighteousness. both in word and understanding.

    Me2
     
  10. amixedupmom

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    Roy I think that is is a place of Spiritual torment as well as physical. We will have diffrent bodies after we die, But I would be willing to bet that our soul would go though torment as well.
     
  11. Roy1

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    Thanks Lea. Yes the bodies will be different, they will be immortal, they would have to be to last for eternity.

    It is the spiritual aspect that has intrigued me. Has anyone else any thoughts and any verses.

    Thanks.

    Roy. [​IMG]
     
  12. Marcia

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    Roy1, I am not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if those in hell are conscious? Yes, they are. They are suffering physically, mentally, and spiritually. How can there be physical torment without other torment as well?

    I guess the best look we have at this is Luke 16. This is before the Lake of Fire, but it shows the suffering of the rich man in an unrepetant state after death.
     
  13. wopik

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    Marcia

    If I consume a candy bar, it's gone forever.

    If I consume a 16 oz. steak, it's gone forever.

    If a fire consumes a house, the house is gone forever, along with all my wedding pictures. poof. Gone. Never to be replaced.
     
  14. wopik

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    The "rich man" - in the grave - "lifts up his eyes" (Lk 16:23) - in a resurrection.

    But when he is resurrected, he sees a flame which torments him; he sees this awful flame of fire -- this lake of fire into which he is to be thrown. He is terrified!

    If the rich man were in the kind of "hell" most people seem to believe, his whole body would be on fire -- you would think he would have called for at least a bucket of water to put out the fire.

    How much water did he call for? He said to Abraham: "....send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water."

    Just a couple of drops -- that's all the water he requested. Doesn't that strike you as strange ?

    He only wanted a mere couple of drops of water on Lazarus' finger -- why? -- "TO COOL MY TONGUE." (Lk 16:24).

    This flame he saw was TORMENTING him. The rich man is suffering mental anguish such as he never experienced in his life. His tongue is dry. He breaks out in a cold sweat.

    He cries for a little water on the tip of Lazarus' finger to cool his tongue. He is in a condition of weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ -- type in "tormented" and go to Luke 16, please.
     
  15. Trotter

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    Eternal, conscious seperation from God. To me, that would be the worst of it all.

    Before I became a Chriatian, I was seperated from God, but He was still there. In the second death, those who's names are not found in the book of life will be permenantly severed from God's prescence.

    Jesus tasted this on the cross, when our sin was laid upon Him. God turned away, breaking all contact. Jesus' words echo deeply in my soul, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" Those words bring tears to my ears, and a chill to my spine.

    And to think that those who refuse Jesus will suffer that for all of eternity...

    Man was created to live with God forever. And, in the end, he will live forever. Where, on the other hand, is up to each individual. The new earth with the whole of the Godhead, or in the lake of fire, forever burning but not consumed, alive, awake, and totally alone.

    Praise the Lord! He loved us enough to make a way for us to miss that awful destination. Praise the Lord!

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  16. Roy1

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    Hi Marcia,

    The question is on the spiritual aspect of the torment. I have no queries on the physical side of the torment. The question is about those that equate the dead in sin and trespasses as the spirit being dead just like a physical body. So to suffer the full torment of hell then the lake of fire, that dead spirit would have to be quickened by God.

    I believe that the spirit of man is separated from God, and at death that separation is eternal. So there for they will feel the full agony of hell, seeing that have rejected God whist they had opportunity.

    It is to the spiritual agony that my question is pointed to. Do other see the issue as separation, then separated for eternity. Or spiritual death like physical death, then being quickened of punishment, or is the dead sprit still dead and the agony and torment as only physical and mental.

    Maybe this fuller question will help.


    AMEN, Trotter
    Praise the Lord! He loved us enough to make a way for us to miss that awful destination. Praise the Lord!


    Roy.
     
  17. jane

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    Roy,

    Are you asking about the spritual agony of person in hell? Of course yes! If you notice when the person died, the physical body was deteriorated here on earth but the consciousness is still in the sprit the reason why the rich man felt the sufferings and torments.. The agony Physically is the consciousness and the feeling of the Sprit who is suffering in Hell. [​IMG]
     
  18. freeatlast

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    Roy,
    ther eis no ned to think or guess. The bile speaks of those who will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The lost will be raised to get a new body and then sent to the lake of fire to suffer in the new body forever.
     
  19. Roy1

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    But does the new body have a conscious sprit, that is the question? If the spirit of the unsaved man is dead, will it be quickened to be experience the wrath of God in eternity to come?

    Roy.
     
  20. Brutus

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    Roy: how about Dan.12:2, " And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Or, Mt. 3:12; Lk. 3:17; Mk.9:43-48. How about Rom.2:6-8? This text is significant because wrath and fury are the alternative to "eternal life." This seems to imply that the wrath and fury are experienced instead of life "eternally" forever. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might, when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed. 2 Thess.1:9-10.
    Hell is a dreadful reality. And to speak of it lightly only proves that we do not grasp its horror. The infinite horrors of hell are intended by God to be a vivid demonstration of the infinite value of His glory,which sinners have belittled.
     

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