"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

I, too, am a pre-trib; but the situation blackbird raises dealt with Christians during the rise of the Beast, so I phrased the ultimate situation of what he/she brought up: The Mark.

For, you see, Revelation clearly tells us that ALL who receive the mark shall not see the kingdom, but suffer wrath.

But the mindset is, it's okay to lie if you think it will save a life. By that mindset, it's okay to lie (to yourself) about taking the mark in order to feed your children, or others--because, hey, you didn't really take the mark, did you? You just fooled 'em, didn't ya?....

Situation ethics.

 

Post-it,

I posted this reply on page three, but it would seem that you did not notice it. I hope you don't mind if I post it again.

I see no reason why these verses, or any other verses that I have quoted in this discussion, should not be taken as litteral promises. If you disagree with the plain reading of Scripture, you must provide a Scriptural basis for that disagreement. Why do you claim that these promises cannot be counted on 100%?

 

If it is always wrong to misrepresent the truth, explain the following situations found in Scripture:

Rahab lied about the spies

The mid-wifes lied about the Hebrew babies

In both these situations God blessed the result, therefore, if a lot of what I read here is true, God was an accessory after the fact. Certainly, God did not sin, therefore, is some instances lying it is acceptable. The key is, God's laws, telling us to act out of love, overrides man's law.

 

My comments had nothing to do with the Tribulation's situations. They have to do with the current church age and situation ethics. Is it ever wrong to tell a lie? Thats the question for the church age here and now. I said that the question falls under the heading of Situation Ethics. It depends on the situation. Most of us think back to Wartime Europe and hiding Jews. Telling the Gestapo something like, "They ain't here!" when in fact they are right under our noses! If it ever comes to saving a life by lieing--yes! When I know that if caughing up the truth would mean your life will be taken! I could come up with a big lie to save a life if I know that the truth would mean that life would be taken!

 

One more thing. If telling a lie to save your life in a critical situation causes me to have to suffer in God's "Wood Shed"--then thats where I'd be willing to go--to preserve your life. Thats how precious that life and living is to me!

 

Terry wrote:

Terry, you must not have really read through this thread. It's God's laws that tell us not to lie.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue....

Romans 12:17 ...Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

2 Corinthians 8:21 Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

And a few others that have already been posted in this thread.
-------------------------------------------------

So it's more important to you to do what you think is correct rather than what God tells us is correct?

 

I agree with you as qualified by James 4:3.

 

So what you guys are telling me is this--say we are in Wartime Europe, I am a "Downed" American or British pilot and you are hiding me and the Gestapo comes in to your home and begins "quizzing" you to my whereabouts--and I'm in the attic or under the bed or out yonder in the dairy parlor--and that the Gestapo has a "bead" drawn on my head or their mortars locked in and loaded--you're gonna sit there and tell them the truth???!! I can just hear it--"Yes! Captain! He's right over yonder! Its the truth! He's the one your looking for!" When you tell him that--you might as well be the one loading that first mortar round!! Land sakes alive! Lie for me--so that the Gestapo can go about their business somewhere else down the road and so that I can make it somehow back to Great Brittian and fly again to win that cotton pickin war!!

 

Speaking for myself, I am telling you that I would say, "I will not answer your questions." I would continue to do this until they killed me or stopped asking. It is my duty to obey God's commands, not to judge whether the outcome of doing so is acceptable or not.

 

What Scott said.

And that's been your misunderstanding of this, Blackbird. There are NOT only two answers here, and never have been.

Since you want to do "what if" situations, Blackbird, try this one: What if you're being hunted, and I hide you under my dining room table. The people hunting you knock on my door, and ask if I've seen you. I walk out the door, closing it behind me without a word, and walk down to the neighborhood store and buy some milk--all without saying a word.

Is it possible they're going to be incensed by my ignoring them, to the point where they'll probably jack me up? Quite possibly forgetting all about you?

You didn't ask the right question, Blackbird: Would I tell them about you? NO. Would I lie about it? NO.

What if? We could "what if" ourselves till the cows come home.

Answer this one: What if worms had machine guns? (and no, it really has nothing to do with the subject, other than pointing out the futility of "what if" questions....)

 

And you've done an admirable job in "cheerleading" Jarlaxle...without answering the rebuttals.

 

This thread is very troubling. The fact that some folks want to second guess God's revealed will is incredible to me.

I used to interact with a Jehovah's Witness lady. We were both trying to convert each other . In order to reach her, I began to familiarize myself with their literature. In one booklet, the Watchtower justifies lying in order to protect and build their organization... Why? Because the ones being lied to "did not deserve the truth." It is wrong for JW's... and Baptists... and Catholic clergy engaging in cover up... etc.

Here's another scenario for you: What if a killer of an abortion doctor asked me to hide him? Should I turn him in to the police?

I believe that abortion is murder. He may have prevented numerous unborn children from dying. Should I lie to protect him?

Because many of us have a 100% certainty that abortion is in fact murder, do we then have the right to use force to stop abortion?

With full respect to your situational morality, why or why not?

[ August 12, 2002, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

This wasn't the thread I was in when I clicked reply!!!

[ August 12, 2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

I ask again, where is God in all of these "situations"?

You lie because you think it is the only answer. Does anyone here trust God?????? Do you think He is not powerful enough to overcome without having to do something that He despises?

Where is your faith, in man or God?

~Lorelei

 

Congradulations! The majority of you just put a mortar round "down the tube" and its heading my way! I am that downed American pilot trying to obey God's law by obeying man's law--and you wouldn't cover my rear end! You told the enemy the truth--your life was spared!

 

And you, sir, need to quit misrepresenting our position.

Did I not say that I wouldn't tell them anything? How does that suddenly become twisted into telling them where you are?

If you're not even going to be truthful in re-stating what we've been saying, no wonder you can see the logic in lying.

----------

Please take this as constructive criticism only. I don't, as a general rule of thumb, talk about spelling or grammar errors. I make plenty of them myself. That said, "congratulations" for some reason is a pet peeve. It's spelled with a "t", not a "d".

I apologize for pointing out a nit-noid, but as I said, it's a pet peeve. Feel free to stomp all over my spelling and grammar--but also be assured that word is the only one I'll ever talk to anyone about.

(edited at 9:40pm eastern -- And I just noticed that I myself misspelled the very word!)

[ August 12, 2002, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

This may be over-simplifying things, but consider these two thoughts:

1 Thess 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." We can conclude from this principle that it is never right to do wrong in order to do right. But also consider:

Acts 5:29 "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." God's laws are far and away more superior than man's laws. Anytime man's laws go against God's law, God's law is to be obeyed.

A great example would be Jesus healing the withered hand on the Sabbath.

Mat 12:10 "And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."

According to our Lord, the higher law was to do well. If we choose to go against man's law, or even as Jesus did, go against a lesser law of God, make sure that it is being done for God's honor and glory and to fulfill His purpose.

Lying to save a righteous life from an evil oppressor would be submitting to the higher law of doing well IMHO.

 

Dear Pastor Bob 63,

You hit the nail right on the head! All along I believe that I have been misrepresented in my explainations of lying. I know and understand what you fellas were stateing. I don't and never will lie just for the "sake" of lying. I'll never tell a "big one" just to save "face!" BUT when the situation demands it(like when a righteous, innocent life is threatened) I will put on my best "Poker Face" in order to "cover" that threatened person!

 

And I still beg an answer as to the scenario presented by both Scott and myself: Saying nothing, and drawing attention to ourselves rather than the person being hunted.

Why won't you respond to that?