IS IT IN THE BIBLE??

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by tamborine lady, Jul 8, 2005.

  1. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady
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    [​IMG]

    I have wondered about this for a long time, and now that this attack has happened in London, I have to ask.

    Is there anywhere in the Bible where it mentions a time like this, where we don't know who the enemy is until it's too late?

    Always in times past when a war broke out, the enemy wore a uniform, we wore a uniform, so you could pretty much know who was who.

    Now, the terrorists blend in with the population and attack without warning, and still no one knows who they are!!

    I will admit, I don't know the answer to this question. I just wonder if maybe somewhere in the Bible there is reference to times like these. I'm pretty sure it's there I just don't know where to look!!

    Looking forward to all your answers.

    Tam
     
  2. StefanM

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    Terrorism really isn't new. Only the methods are new. Thousands of years ago some people poisoned wells, etc. to kill the civilian population.
     
  3. bmerr

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    TL,

    bmerr here. Our world in general is in the condition it's in because people have forsaken God. Romans 1:18-32 describes to a "T" the mass of humanity that decides they don't need God.

    The terrorists you mentioned could be found several times in vv. 29-31 in terms like, "being filled with all unrighteousness", "covetousness", "maliciousness", "full of...murder", "deceit", "inventors of evil things", "without understanding", "without natural affection", "unmerciful".

    Obviously these terms describe more than just Islamofacist terrorists, but they fit the bill pretty well, too. I'm sure there are other passages that could describe the "peaceful Islamists" as well, but Rom 1 came to mind first.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  4. prophecynut

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    The unknown enemy within sovereign nations are usually "foreigners" whether citizens or not.

    As posted in a different thread, there is a reference to foreigners being sent to USA for the purpose for selecting targets for destruction (Jer. 51:2). During the coming invasion of America foreigners will fall victim to the sword (50:37), those who escape the sword will "flee to (their) own land" (50:16).

    The foreigners who want to destroy America are mostly Muslims from various nations, specifically the Iranians (51:11; 28). The foreigners here during the invasion and those who escape the sword and return to their native land are from all the nations.

    All this will happen before its "too late" to retaliate, that day of destruction will come like a thief in the night, "suddenly" like a "trap" (Jer. 50:24; Lk. 21:34; 1 Thess. 5:2-3).

    England and Israel will experience the same.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    I don't see this specific issue with Islam and the civilized world in the Bible for the 21st century.

    There is something in Revelation about the Ottoman empire having dominion for 5 months (day for a year = 150 years) in which they ran over Turkey, Greece, India and were a pain in the neck to the west.

    But nothing they have done in recent centuries even BEGINS to compare to what they were doing during the bloody years of the Ottoman empire.

    Basically on the scale of world history - they have not done anything worthy of note yet.

    The 10's of millions slaughtered by the Catholic church during the dark ages, the millions enslaved by the Ottoman Empire for many decades the rise of America as the world's single superpower etc - all that you might expect to find as "noteworthy".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. prophecynut

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    Noteworthy yes, since saints will be martyred again by the Catholic church during the Tribulation. The Ottoman empire is historical and cannot fulfill any prophecy in Jeremiah or Revelation. No further discussion.
     
  7. billwald

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    Judas I. was a terrorist.
     
  8. mioque

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    Indeed.
    There is ofcourse the irony that in a few cases the foreigners have existed in the same spot longer than the sovereign nation they are terrorizing. Basques in Spain, Irish in the days that the whole of Ireland was part of the U.K. and Indians in the USA.
     
  9. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Thanks for all the good comments. I guess it seems worse now than it did when you read about it in the Bible. The old testament had a lot of sneaky people.

    There weren't near as many people back then, so it must have seemed the same as it does to us now. But the world has around 6 billion people and with communications being what they are it just compacts everything.

    And just a word about the terrorists. Thinking about the USA, when the settlers came in and took it away from the Indians, who were the bad guys again??

    (I'm part Commanche Indian, so I am probably predudiced)

    Thanks again,

    Tam
     
  10. Rachel

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    That's what I would like to know. :confused: Did I read that wrong??
     
  11. prophecynut

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    The bad guys were the white guys.

    Quotation:
    -- "The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world." David E. Stannard. 4
    -- "This violent corruption needn't define us.... We can say, yes, this happened, and we are ashamed. We repudiate the greed. We recognize and condemn the evil. And we see how the harm has been perpetuated. But, five hundred years later, we intend to mean something else in the world." Barry Lopez. 3
    -- "By then [1891] the native population had been reduced to 2.5% of its original numbers and 97.5% of the aboriginal land base had been expropriated....Hundreds upon hundreds of native tribes with unique languages, learning, customs, and cultures had simply been erased from the face of the earth, most often without even the pretense of justice or law." Peter Montague 1

    Overview:

    The population of North America prior to the first sustained European contact in 1492 CE is a matter of active debate. Various estimates of the pre-contact Native population of the continental U.S. and Canada range from 1.8 to over 12 million. 4 Over the next four centuries, their numbers were reduced to about 237,000 as Natives were almost wiped out. Author Carmen Bernand estimates that the Native population of what is now Mexico was reduced from 30 million to only 3 million over four decades. 13 Peter Montague estimates that Europeans once ruled over 100 million Natives throughout the Americas.

    European persecution of Natives started with Christopher Columbus' arrival in San Salvador in 1492. Native population dropped dramatically over the next few decades. Some were directly exterminated by Europeans. Others died indirectly as a result of contact with introduced diseases for which they had no resistance -- mainly smallpox, influenza, and measles.

    Later European Christian invaders systematically murdered additional Aboriginal people, from the Canadian Arctic to South America. They used warfare, death marches, forced relocation to barren lands, destruction of their main food supply -- the Buffalo -- and poisoning. Oppression continued into the 20th century, through actions by governments and religious organizations which systematically destroyed Native culture and religious heritage. One present-day byproduct of this oppression is suicide. Today, Canadian Natives have the highest suicide rate of any identifiable population group in the world.

    The genocide against American Natives was one of the most massive, and longest lasting genocidal campaigns in human history. It started, like all genocides, with the oppressor treating the victims as sub-humans. It continued until almost all Natives were wiped of the face of the earth, along with much of their language, culture and religion.

    We believe that:
    -- Only the mass murder of European Jews by Christians from 306 to 1945 CE was of longer duration.
    --Only the mass murder by the government of the USSR of about 41 million of its citizens (1917 to 1987), and by the government of China of about 35 million of its citizens (1949 to 1987) may have involved greater loss of life.

    The following essay contains only a small sampling of the horrendous atrocities inflicted on Natives by Europeans.


    Christopher Columbus and other Spaniards:

    "Christopher Columbus has been a genuine American hero since at least 1792 when the Society of St. Tammany in New York City first held a dinner to honor the man and his deeds." Columbus Day has been celebrated as a national holiday since 1934 in honor of this dedicated and courageous explorer. Unfortunately, his character had a dark side.

    Columbus described the Arawaks -- the Native people in the West Indies -- as timid, artless, free, and generous. He rewarded them with death and slavery. For his second voyage to the Americas, "Columbus took the title 'Admiral of the Ocean Sea' and proceeded to unleash a reign of terror unlike anything seen before or since. When he was finished, eight million Arawaks -- virtually the entire native population of Hispaniola -- had been exterminated by torture, murder, forced labor, starvation, disease and despair." 1 A Spanish missionary, Bartolome de las Casas, described eye-witness accounts of mass murder, torture and rape. 2 Author Barry Lopez, summarizing Las Casas' report wrote: "One day, in front of Las Casas, the Spanish dismembered, beheaded, or raped 3000 people. 'Such inhumanities and barbarisms were committed in my sight,' he says, 'as no age can parallel....' The Spanish cut off the legs of children who ran from them. They poured people full of boiling soap. They made bets as to who, with one sweep of his sword, could cut a person in half. They loosed dogs that 'devoured an Indian like a hog, at first sight, in less than a moment.' They used nursing infants for dog food." 3 The Spaniards eventually went on to conquer Mexico and the southern U.S.


    The British:

    The British occupied areas from Virginia northward. Hans Koning wrote: "From the beginning, the Spaniards saw the native Americans as natural slaves, beasts of burden, part of the loot. When working them to death was more economical than treating them somewhat humanely, they worked them to death. The English, on the other hand, had no use for the native peoples. They saw them as devil worshippers, savages who were beyond salvation by the church, and exterminating them increasingly became accepted policy." 5 David E. Stannard wrote: "Hundreds of Indians were killed in skirmish after skirmish. Other hundreds were killed in successful plots of mass poisoning. They were hunted down by dogs, 'blood-Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives [mastiffs] to seize them.' Their canoes and fishing weirs were smashed, their villages and agricultural fields burned to the ground. Indian peace offers were accepted by the English only until their prisoners were returned; then, having lulled the natives into false security, the colonists returned to the attack. It was the colonists' expressed desire that the Indians be exterminated, rooted 'out from being longer a people upon the face of the earth.' In a single raid the settlers destroyed corn sufficient to feed four thousand people for a year. Starvation and the massacre of non-combatants was becoming the preferred British approach to dealing with the natives." 4


    The Americans:

    In the early 18th century, the states of Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Jersey promoted a genocide of their local Natives by imposing a "scalp bounty" on dead Indians. "In 1703, Massachusetts paid 12 pounds for an Indian scalp. By 1723 the price had soared to 100 pounds." 10 Ward Churchill wrote: "Indeed, in many areas it [murdering Indians] became an outright business." 6 This practice of paying a bounty for Indian scalps continued into the 19th century before the public put an end to the practice. 10

    In the 18th century, George Washington compared them to wolves, "beasts of prey" and called for their total destruction. 4 In 1814, Andrew Jackson "supervised the mutilation of 800 or more Creek Indian corpses" that his troops had killed. 6

    Extermination of all of the surviving natives was urged by the Governor of California officially in 1851. 4 An editorial from the Rocky Mountain News in Denver, CO in 1863; and from the Santa Fe New Mexican in 1863 expressed the same sentiment. 6 In 1867, General William Tecumseh Sherman said, "We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux [Lakotas] even to their extermination: men, women and children." 6

    In 1848, before the gold rush in California, that state's native population is estimated to have been 150,000. In 1870, after the gold rush, only about 31,000 were still alive. "Over 60 percent of these indigenous people died from disease introduced by hundreds of thousands of so-called 49ers. However, local tribes were also systematically chased off their lands, marched to missions and reservations, enslaved and brutally massacred." 12 The price paid for a native scalp had dropped as low as $0.25. Native historian, Jack Forbes, wrote: "The bulk of California's Indians were conquered, and died, in innumerable little episodes rather than in large campaigns. it serves to indict not a group of cruel leaders, or a few squads of rough soldiers, but in effect, an entire people; for ...the conquest of the Native Californian was above all else a popular, mass, enterprise." 11
     
  12. CYBERDOVE

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    prophecynut, where did you get this information from? I would like to take a look a it. Thanks
     
  13. rsr

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    Prophecynut's source is:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

    While I am generally sympathetic to the thrust of the argument, the essay does leave out some factors that should be considered, and it entirely omits (because it's a polemical article) many other elements.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Thank you, Brother Prophecynut.

    Toward the American Indians we have
    fulfilled this prophecy of Hosea:

    Hos 8:7 For they haue sowen the winde,
    and they shall reape the whirlewinde:

    Today the USofA spends more money on
    losses to Indians and welfare to Indains
    than THE USofA was WORTH in 1776.
     
  15. Dave

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    Certainly there is much shame to be born by this nation for the treatment of the native population.

    A nation which so enjoyed the blessings of God throughout its formative years, should have been concerned with evangelizing the indiginous population, not exterminating them.
     
  16. prophecynut

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    I'll let you by on Hos 8:7, I don't want you to think I'm picking on you.

    Buffalo almost became instinct from the senseless slaughtering by us white folks. Befitting of Habakkuk prophecy: "your destruction of animals will terrify you" (3:17).
     
  17. Claudia_T

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    The Bible does say that right before the second coming of Christ "nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"

    Matthew 24
    3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    6: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.
     
  18. Johnv

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    That's been an earthly constant since there have been kingdoms and nations. From an objective view, there aren't any more of them at odds today then there were in Moses' or Jesus' time.

    Sidenote: When scripture typically talks about "nations", it often referrs to a clan of people, such as the "Nation of Israel" and such. The politics of the ancient world was quite different than that of today.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    That's been an earthly constant since there have been kingdoms and nations. ... </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother -- Preach it!

    ----------------------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
     
  20. yeshua4me2

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    i realize America did do bad things to "indian" nations. i live (and my wife works for) the Commanche naiton, and i know many Commanche, and Kiowa citizens. to say that Americans (the individuals) did this is wrong. the Government did this (for the most part in secret)and at the time it occured the majority of the population(outside the Fed Gov't and "in the know") were against this sort of genocide (though many had been brainwashed by darwins teaching that they were less evolved than us)

    and i agree with Ed......they own casinos where i live and boy does the "white man" give back to them now.

    i can't speak to the truth of this but i read somewhere (a magazine i think) that the majority of the land taken by the colonists (not discoverers or explorers or conquistidors) was gotten in "un"-fair trade....like trading glass and copper for land. (these things had no value for the colonists....the "indians" held copper to be like gold.

    i not saying anything is right, just an interesting thread.

    thankyou and God Bless
     

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