Is it infusion or imputation?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Gunther, Jun 17, 2003.

  1. Gunther

    Gunther
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    This is directed more toward the catholics in this forum. Is the righteousness of Christ infused or imputed toward the believing sinner?

    I know your answer. I would just like to see some support other than a "church" council or document.

    Thanks.
     
  2. neal4christ

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    With all due respect, Gunther, I don't think that is the best way to start a thread. You really shouldn't ask a question and then say you know the answer that someone will give. Chances are they will be much more hostile to you. [​IMG]

    Neal
     
  3. Gunther

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    No hostility intended. I just wanted to start a discussion. I am not ignorant of what they believe though. That is all.
     
  4. neal4christ

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    No problem, just giving some friendly advice. [​IMG]

    Neal
     
  5. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    Gunther,
    The main difficulty that you will discover when you debate Roman Catholics on the subject of justification is the difference in the way we define the terms involved. They have totally different definitions for words like justification, sanctification, (these two words have basically the same meaning to a Catholic), grace, works etc.
    For example. Works as mentioned in Scripture, would be anything an individual would do to merit salvation, including the RC sacraments.
    A Catholic will tell you that the sacraments are not works but are sanctifying graces. Works to a Catholic would only include those mentioned in the Torah. Any where in the New Testament where Paul mentions works the RC will tell you that he is refering to the Torah. A five point Calvinist like myself believes that salvation is not a synergistic effort between God and man but is an operative act of God that would totally leave man out of the equation because:

    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

    14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

    17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    18
    There is no fear of God before their eyes.



    Rom 3:11-18

    Why did Christ establish the Church?
    Christ established the Church as the universal sacrament of salvation.

    How is the Church the universal sacrament of salvation?
    The Church is the universal sacrament of salvation as the divinely instituted means of conferring grace on all the members of the human family.

    What does the Catholic Church believe about the forgiveness of sins?
    She believes it is God’s will that no one is forgiven except through the merits of Jesus Christ and that these merits are uniquely channeled through the Church He founded. Consequently, even as the Church is the universal sacrament of salvation, she is also the universal sacrament of reconciliation.

    How does the Church communicate the merits of Christ’s mercy to sinners?
    The Church communicates the merits of Christ’s mercy to sinners through the Mass and the sacraments and all the prayers and good works of the faithful.

    Are the sacraments necessary for salvation?
    According to the way God has willed that we be saved the sacraments are necessary for salvation

    (John Hardon, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (Garden City: Image, 1981), Questions # 401, 402, 461, 462, 1119).


    When Rome states that an individual is justified by grace she means that grace has been infused into the soul of man. This makes him righteous before God and enables him to perform acts of righteousness. These then become the basis of justification and the means whereby he merits heaven. Justification is a process then by which the individual is made righteous in a moral sense. The Roman Catholic Church interprets the phrase the righteousness of God to mean a human righteousness which has its source in the grace of God, channeled through sacraments. But the righteousness itself is the work of man cooperating with that grace. The righteousness of God then is not the righteousness of Christ but rather the righteousness of man which results from the gift of grace, the source of which is God. The Roman Catholic theologian William Marshner explains the Roman Catholic position in these words:

    Now, if what Paul means by dikaiosune theou (righteousness of God) is not something to remain in God but something to be conferred on us, then we must reckon with that mysterious possibility: a quality of man which is the property of God! Does St. Paul say anything to indicate a knowledge of this possibility? Indeed he does: ‘God has made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that we in him might become justice of God’ (II Cor. 5:21)...It is not a question of replacement but of participation, and the participation is real in both directions. First in Jesus: just as really as the Word took our humanity, just that really his humanity became God. And then in us: just as really as Christ–God took our sins (so really that even the Father forsook Him—Mark 15:34), just that really we receive God’s justice. For if we dare to believe that in the Incarnation our nature, without ceasing to be a human nature, received God’s subsistence, then we may easily believe that we, in Christ, receive God’s justice as our quality. In fact, St. Paul even has a name for this quality. In the very next verse (II Cor. 6:1) he says: ‘As God’s co–workers, we beg you once again not to have received God’s grace in vain.’ What we should not ‘receive in vain’ is exactly what Paul has just said we have ‘become’ in Christ. God’s justice is His grace, a gift given to men. That is why the justice of God is identically ‘the justice which comes from God through faith’ (Philippians 3:9). What emerges from these texts then, is the existence in man of a justice conferred by God (William Marshner, Justification by Faith. Taken from Reasons for Hope: Catholic Apologetics (Front Royal: Christendom College, 1978), pp. 232-233).

    Do you see the problem?

    [ June 18, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Ps104_33 ]
     
  6. Born Again Catholic

    Born Again Catholic
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    Gunther

    Here is an article that goes through many of the common protestant objections on justification with Biblical references.

    http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a036.html

    Sorry I don't have the time to discuss it with you personally, but I am curious what you think of the parallel Paul made when he said just as we were "made sinners" throught the first Adam we were "made righteous" through the New Adam Jesus Christ.


    Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were MADE sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be MADE righteous." Romans 5:17-19

    God Bless
     
  7. JFS

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    PS104 this statement is just plain wrong. If I say “yes” to Jesus is my “yes” in and of itself a work? As I go on my journey towards God I have learned one thing. Pride is the biggest stumbling block that I have to deal with. It prevents me from having a stronger relationship with Jesus. Why should I take pride in anything good I do? I am sure you would agree that I should not. It is my duty to do good. Why should I be proud of doing my duty. In fact it is not me doing the good work. It is Jesus working through me doing the good work. He is the head we are the body. It is his will being done. The only thing I will is to do his work. How on earth can I then take credit for the Good works done through me? When the Catholic church talks about merit it refers to cooperating with the Grace of God. It is by his grace that I do good.

    CCC 2025. "We can have MERIT in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. MERIT is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's MERIT is due to God. "

    So I hope you can see that as a Catholic I can not earn salvation. By saying yes to Jesus every second of every day I have faith and hope that I will not loose my salvation. And that is the crux of the problem you have. You believe we cannot loose our salvation once we have it and we say God gives us the free will to through it away. But the more we conform our will to that of the Father the less likely we are to will the loss of our salvation.

    God Bless

    John Secker
     
  8. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    What do you mean by the phrase "cooperating with the grace of God"? Who is doing the "cooperating"?
    Man or God? How is cooperating with God in our justification not considered a work?
     
  9. JFS

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    Ok lets play this game. I will amswer your questions by asking questions and you answer my questions by asking questions. OK? OK.

    How can my saying yes(cooperating) to Jesus be my own works? When you got down on your knees and said the sinners prayer and said yes to Jesus was that a work on your part or were you responding to the Grace of God and accepting the faith He was giving you at that moment? You can't have it both ways. It's the same thing I am describing. They are either works or Grace.

    God bless

    John Secker
     
  10. Gunther

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    I believe in the "Federal headship" of both Adam and Christ.

    All who have Adam as their head (and that has included everyone except Christ), have judgment and condemnation, and death over them.

    All who have Christ as their head (only those who are redeemed), have justice, peace, righteousness, etc, over them.

    This discussion is getting out of control already though.

    Paul speaks of righteousness as being put to a person's account. That righteousness is actually the righteousness of Christ (Rom 4 and 2 Cor 5). So the catholic is put in a position of saying that Christ's righteousness is not sufficient in and of itself to save, thus the need on their part to include other means such as the sacraments. Is this correct?
     
  11. JFS

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    No this is incorrect. The problem lies in that you subcribe to the view that salvation, once attained, cannot be lost. We as Catholics subcribe to the view that God gives us the free will to, once we attain salvation, through it away. The sacraments are the means by which Christ's blood is applied to us. They are not considered by the Church to be anything extra. The RCC teaches and has taught always that Jesus' sacrfice on the cross is sufficient to save every soul created.

    God Bless

    John Secker
     
  12. Ps104_33

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    I am not playing games, friend. The bottom line is imputation is biblical. Infusion is not.

    Psalms 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

    Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

    Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


    Just Bible Search

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  13. Gunther

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    1. Actually, that has nothing to do with it. Calvinists and Arminians have historically believed in the imputation of Christs' righteousness without agreeing on the eternal security of the believer. If this is your basis for rejection, you should probably rethink it.

    2. Could you clarify that last part?

    3. So what exactly is put to the believer's account? Is it just a little bit of blood or saving power or a little bit of righteousness?

    4. If his atonement is sufficient to save all by itself, why does the RCC require the sacraments?
     

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