Is it the will of God...

The story is in every ancient culture I have found -- man is separated from the High God, the Creator, because of his own disobedience. Man cannot get that relationship back, but there is a Promise of an Answer from that Creator.

That story, one way or another, has been in every culture. Check the missionaries' stories. Read the legends of the ancients. It's there. It's all there. Enough to hang a shard of trust and faith on. Always enough. God has never been willing that one should perish.

 

Methinks you are grasping at straws, Helen, in your attempt to claim salvation by our supposed "free will".

[ December 26, 2002, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

 

You are misrepresenting me again, Ken. Salvation is entirely of Christ, not of our free will. However He has given us the freedom to accept or reject.

And no, I'm not grasping at straws at all. The evidence is in history. All I had to do was find it out. It was a surprise to me, and a delightful one. I did not expect what I found, nor was I looking for it. I have simply always enjoyed archaeology, anthropology, ancient legends and such.

 

So, Helen, does believing an ancient legend by these people you are referring to equal believing the Bible and trusting in Jesus' finished work on behalf of sinners?

 

Ken H,
What is your point with Helen. You accuse her of having some hideous belief about God, in which billions of people end up in hell because of their misused free will. What's your point?

As a calvanist, are you saying that billions of people will end up in hell, but because it is God's will it is, somehow, alright? Either way the end result is the same.

 

No, I do not believe that tens of billions of people for whom Jesus suffered the penalty for their sins will be tormented forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. I don't believe that Jesus paid the price and Satan gets what Jesus paid for as a ransom. I don't believe that some lucky few enjoy heaven forever and ever while just about everyone else burns forever and ever and ever and ever. I think that anyone, non-Calvinist or Calvinist, who believes that should rethink their position.

Ken

[ December 26, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

 

Ken H,
What are you saying? Will there be billions of people in hell, yes or no?

 

Ken, you again misrepresent what I am saying. I am saying that the ancient legends indicate that they knew enough to believe in GOD. They were not believing what we have now in the form of legend! The legends indicate that they knew enough to know the truth and believe on God's promises.

PLEASE! There is a radical difference!

Think about it -- David was a man after God's own heart, yet he could not possibly believe in the finished work of Christ, could he?

But I bet we will see him in heaven...

 

Any takers??

 

In reading the Psalms, I believe the answer is yes.

Psalm 19:14
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 49:15
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,
For He will receive me.Selah.

Psalm 71:23
23 My lips will shout for joy when I sing praises to You;
And my soul, which You have redeemed.

Psalm 78:35
35 And they remembered that God was their rock,
And the Most High God their Redeemer.

 

The example of Christ's murder is on point here. If God ordained the greatest sin that man ever committed, why would it be difficult to accept that God has ordained lesser sins?</font>[/QUOTE]There is no such thing as a lesser sin! Sin is sin and none is worse than another.

 

Over these past 5 years, I have come to dislike message boards, but apparently I am hooked on them to some degree. One reason to dislike them is because the debates that become the most fervent are about those issues which are unprovable or beyond understanding-- and in the case of theology, differing routes toward the same result.

Calvinism v. non-Calvinism is just such a debate. A "few" find the way of salvation; a vast majority (billions) are damned eternally. They are thus condemned because of "sin," which means missing the mark (Biblical explicit), with the "mark" being what God desires (Biblical IMplicit). If everything that happens is the will of God (total sovereignty), then God's will is for God's mark to be missed (sin). But since it is not God's will that any should perish (the result of missing his mark), then in our reasoning it cannot be his will that any should miss his mark (sin), so then his total sovereignty is refuted if sin does occur, and it is both scriptural and obvious that sin does occur. That makes an infinity of: God's will is that humanity violate his will, which is that humanity not violate his will, which is that humanity violate his will......

So if "calvinism" is defined as "everything is predestined", then either "sin" or "God's will" (or both) is an absurdity. But on the other hand, if everything is not predestined, then when we sin God has declined his sovereignty to a degree and allowed it, and allowing it results in something which scripture explicitly states is NOT his will ("perish"ing). That indicates that God chose damnation for the masses by making sin possible, which he did not have to do.

As I said, I dislike message boards despite letting myself become attached to reading them, and this is an example of why. Calvinism or non-calvinism... it's the same result, and the result is not sound reasoning either way. I don't feel good about this argument or about writing this post, but since it has been written it will be posted.

 

Then, Ken, if David (and Job, who knew that his Redeemer lived) could be believers in that way, anyone pre-Incarnation could have.

 

The reason you are willing to call the crucifixion of Christ a red herring is because you are not willing to be consistent with your answer. The crucifixion of Christ was never a red herring; it was a direct and clear answer to your question, "Does God ordain sin?" You asked the question and I assumed you wanted a biblical response. I gave you one and you respond with "red herring."

But you are here ignoring the plain wording of the text because you do not like where it takes you. Peter said that the murder of Christ was the "predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God." Why are you not satisfied with that? Why do you think it has to be different?

A predetermined plan of murder necessarily involves the actions of those who commit it. Else it would be suicide. Why not be content with the word of Scripture?

So those who murdered Christ were perfect and good?? Hardly. How about Pharoah who was fulfilling God's will of exalting himself (cf. Ex; Rom 9). Was that perfect and good? Of course not. You have not reckoned with Romans 3 where Paul directly answers your question because he anticipates the response that you have put forth. Why will you not listen to what he says?

Helen, it is truly sad to see you confronted with passages such as Psalm 139 where God clearly ordains all days, even the ones that end in tragedy, passages such as Romans 3 where Paul addresses the objection that you have. Additionally passages such as 1 Peter 4:19 explicitly identify suffering (in context perhaps up to death) as the will of God. How about the life of Joseph where tremendous suffering was "intended by God for good" according to the text of Scripture. Every objection that you have put forth has been met with Scripture. What else do you want? It has clearly been the will of God in human history for his people to suffer. I can deal with that and accept it. Why can't you?

Essentially, it appears that your God could do something about suffering but chooses not to. What kind of sadistic characterization of God is that? I believe that God intends suffering to bring about greater glory both for us and for himself. Your thinking cannot allow such a position because it is driven by what you think is necessary.

The Scriptures have been clearly presented. Your questions and objections have been answered from God's word. It comes down to a willingness to submit our thinking to the word of God.

 

Both David and Job knew the true God. Someone living in Siberia in 1500 B.C. had only natural revelation and natural revelation is not sufficient to save. It is sufficient only to know that there is a Creator and that there is right and wrong. It does not reveal what God has done to solve man's sin problem and bring His creation to the state He wants it to be once everything is restored in the new heavens and earth.

 

We are dealing with Gods permissive will vs. Gods perfect will.

 

If God had not saved me I would surely unsave myself after having read this discussion.

 

Ken H,
Why do you not answer my simple question? According to calvinistic doctrine, will there be billions of people in hell?

In all the churches I have attended they all agree that this is so and they also say that there will be many more in hell than in heaven. They attribute this to these people's free will choice by not responding to the Gospel.

 

Both David and Job knew the true God. Someone living in Siberia in 1500 B.C. had only natural revelation and natural revelation is not sufficient to save. It is sufficient only to know that there is a Creator and that there is right and wrong. It does not reveal what God has done to solve man's sin problem and bring His creation to the state He wants it to be once everything is restored in the new heavens and earth.</font>[/QUOTE]How do you know they did not know God, Ken?

 

Sorry, but I cannot do so at this time. At this time I am studying the issue of hell. Until I resolve some questions in my mind on that issue, I cannot answer your question. And it may be well into next year or longer before that happens.

But I will say this as a postmillennialist that I certainly believe as did the great Calvinistic Baptist preacher of London, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, that the Lord's people will outnumber the devil's people as Jesus has the pre-eminence, not the devil.

I am not able to state anything beyond that at this time.

Ken