Is Jesus waiting for men?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by npetreley, Aug 7, 2004.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I have long believed Arminianism/Pelagianism is really humanism wrapped in twisted interpretations of pseudo-Biblical texts. One error I often see preached from the pulpit that echoes this same humanist perspective is that Jesus cannot return until we have fulfilled the great commission. (Oddly enough, these same preachers often teach in the next breath the doctrine of imminence, which is that Jesus could return at any moment -- go figure.)

    They use the following text as evidence that it is up to us to finish the task before Jesus can return:

    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    But hasn't anyone ever noticed what happens in Revelation 14, which describes the events that will occur just before the end, when the hour of judgement is at hand?

    Revelation 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people-- 7 saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

    In other words, Jesus is not referring to the great commission in Matthew 24. He is referring to what angels will do as part of a series of final messages to the entire world (read the whole section in Revelation - or better still, the whole book - for context.)

    This makes the great commission no less great, nor does it relieve us from our responsibilities, but Jesus is not waiting in heaven twiddling His thumbs until we finish our jobs here on earth.

    That is simply a humanist view, an error that is the inevitable result of humanist Arminianism/Pelagianism.
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    No one here believes that Nick. Can anyone say "straw man?"
     
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    I am 90% more in the Arminian belief than any other.

    Jesus can come in the rapture at any second. We all look for the blessed hope.

    With each new generation that is born we are losing the battle in getting the message out to all the world. We might be reaching more by radio, etc. but society, to my way of thinking, has made Christianity a subculture group of people, meaning more will be in Hell as time passes.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Ray Berrian said:

    No, you are absolutely 100% Arminian, modern, not classic.

     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Skandelon said:

    Ray Berrian does, I believe.

    And if you stick around enough you'll be surprised at what those who say they're Arminians and those who thump their chests and sigh at both Arminians and Calvinists really believe in depth.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Where is the quote from 2Peter 3 - where this subject of time and waiting and the nearness of the 2nd coming vs the delay imposed by the earnest desire of God to "WAIT" because "HE is not willing for any to perish"?

    The idea that God delays "in mercy" and for "Evangelistic reasons" related to HIS OWN desire that "NONE perish" but that rather "ALL come to repentance" would be a good focus for this topic -- from the Bible.

    I just wondered why this is not in the opening since it IS the topic.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Bob, the difference between the two should be clear. In 2 Peter 3, the Jesus is not waiting on men (depending on them) to finish a job before He can return.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    In 2Peter 3 the point is addressed regarding the end of the world and the implied question is - 'why the delay'. Peter responds that the long elapsed time is not because God is slow - but because He is "NOT willing that ANY should PERISH but that ALL should come to repentance".

    He portrays God as delaying in Mercy to US - to mankind. And the REASON is EITHER that God is not ABLE to get us in faster -- (a road that Cavlinism unwittingly goes down) or it is the God is waiting for humans to choose life. As in the case of Jonah and Ninevah delaying the destruction of the city in mercy to those people.

    Calvinist seem to have a hard time with that because it means the PEOPLE need to do something "different" and God is delaying the ultimate end waiting for those events to take place.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. UMP

    UMP
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    2 Peter 3:9
    "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

    God is simply waiting for all his (sheep, elect, people the ones Christ died for) to come to repentence. In other words, there may be a gazillion more of his people after we've been dead on gone a thousand years. Just like the Angels telling Lot to get out of dodge. God could not destroy the city until lot had left, because Lott was not supposed to burn up. That was not the plan, therefore God "waited" till Lot left.

    [ August 12, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: UMP ]
     
  10. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Exactly. God is longsuffering (waiting patiently) to us-ward (the elect), not willing to bring things to a close until God's plans to save His elect are fulfilled. In other words, God is waiting for the completion of His work, not ours.

    That's not the same thing as Jesus saying "Okay folks, it's your job to evangelize the world. I'm just going to sit back and watch and wait until you're done, after which I can return."
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    pinobaptist,

    You said, 'So, now, whose theology is assigning more people to hell ?'

    Ray: Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:13-14 that many more will go to Hell than to Heaven.

    Your quoted passage is dealing with the future Great Tribulation saints who will be martyred and will go to Heaven because they refuse to take the Mark of the Beast, 666.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Oh, so now, you accuse Jesus of assigning more people to hell ?

    Make up your mind, Berrian, is it Jesus ? Or is it the Calvinists/Doctrines of Grace side ?
     
  13. Me2

    Me2
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    Jesus is waiting for the knowledge of and works of evil to come to its fullness in the lives of his elect. followed by the receiving of the knowledge of and works of good to be presented, understood and accepted..

    following this event in this age is the "harvest" of Gods creation.

    Which as man are witnessing to today as Gods creation is arriving to the fullness of the knowledge of, and works of, evil.

    When they have arrived at such a time and degree. then the elect will be presented towards these men as Gods reconcilers offering the knowledge of and works of Good.

    the longsuffering that is expressed in peter:

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    always keeping in mind..the promise of God or the lord is to the spirit of Christ within man. for his desires are that all men repent and be reconciled everywhere.
    reconciling in this explaination is that of the knowledge of both good and evil together.

    all men will arrive at the fullness of the knowledge of evil as they also will arrive at the fullness of the knowledge of good.

    as with noah. the men of the antidiluvian period reached their fullness of the knowledge of evil.

    as their physical life was abruptly ended

    yet they were not presented with the knowledge of Good.
    which is still a promise of Christ to all men and will be fulfilled towards those during that period of time as in all time of mankind.

    as men of today. many die while still in the process of reaching the fullness of the knowledge of evil. they are promised as all men are to receive the knowledge of good.

    all men are promised to receive the knowledge of good in the reconciling ministry of the elects future.

    Me2
     
  14. BobRyan

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    "Not willing for ANY to perish" is reworked by our Calvinist friends into "Not willing for the FEW of MATT 7 that God arbitrarily selects out of the WORLD of people that He LOVES".

    A fascinating qualifier for "ANY" gentlemen.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Me2

    Me2
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    some of our brothers focus on the story in romans of the creation of the vessels of wrath and mercy so much. they tire easily as they stop reading short of the conclusion of the story.

    Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    look 'e here..they all receive mercy in the end!.

    both vessels of mercy AND vessels of wrath

    Jesus is waiting for all men to arrive at the same juncture.
    at the jucture where the combination of the knowledge of Good and evil meet.
    So that His father can become all in all in man.

    Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

    God gives all men the knowledge of evil only to take it away and replace it with the knowledge of Good...until all men only have the knowledge of Good in their minds...

    Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

    mans image is to be the fullness of light.

    of which our calvinists brothers think that a little darkness in some men is OK.
    yet this is not God Goal. his goal is that all men contain the fullness of his Son. as seen in the EXAMPLE of the vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.

    If anyone understood revelations. they would know that the great commision to all men BEGINS with the saints prayers being cast to earth in combination with the fire from Gods alter (judgement).
    for the prayers of the saints of God is that all men return the love of God to its source from which it came.

    understanding revelations

    Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
    Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

    this cant occur in this age for God holds back the gospel from all men hearing it. this age is specifically for the calling of Gods bride. it is the next age whereas the great commission will be complete in operation through the work of the elect in the lives of all men.

    look at ourselves for the example. we can come to argue amongst ourselves, yet the majority of the world are clueless. they are not being called to hear and see. yet what we are actually seeing here is the battle between the elect and the reprobates.
    those specific vessels that are being prepared to witness in the next age to the entirety of Gods creation..

    we are seeing romans unfolding before our eyes.
    as we are witnessing to the differences of the vessels of wrath and of mercy.

    when Jesus spoke of the fulfillment of the great commission. he was speaking of many ages being required to see this fulfilled. a process of first calling the elect and afterwards the elect witnessing to Gods creation...all men.


    Me2

    [ August 14, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
     

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