Is Joel 2 A Double...?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Oct 16, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

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    1. While reading through Joel for a special study, I couldn't help noticing Joel 2:28-32, which is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:16-21, as a fulfilment on the Day of Pentecost.

    2. But then I read Joel 3:1ff, which seems to point beyond the events of Acts 2.

    3. Am I correct in attributing a double-fullfilment to Joel 2:28-32?
     
  2. npetreley

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    I think there's a big gap between 29 and 30. It's like when Jesus quoted Isaiah. Notice that he stopped mid-sentence, right after "favor". That's because the very next part (in bold) was not yet fulfilled. It will be fulfilled at His return, the Day of the Lord's wrath.

     
  3. TCGreek

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    But Peter quote both 29 and 30 as pointing to the events on Pentecost. He didn't observe a gap.
     
  4. npetreley

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    Yeah, but I don't think Peter meant that it was all being fulfilled right then. There weren't blood and fire and billows of smoke, and the sun didn't go dark and moon turn to blood at that time in Acts, right? I really think he was just quoting the whole passage. I could certainly be wrong, but I'm convinced that there's a big time gap between 29 and 30. The signs given in 30 onward belong to the Day of the Lord, which is a future event.
     
  5. TCGreek

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    1. The concept of dark and moon turn to blood, Isn't that just part of apocalyptic literature, and not necessarily to be taken literally?


    2. Isn't the Day of the Lord sometimes a reference to other events, like a 586 BC destruction and not necessarily the last great Day of the Lord?
     
  6. Allan

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    We are to take it literally unless the passage contends for a different rendering. We do not take it allegorically first and then look for truths along the way. This is the position of how Preterists/partial Preterists (depending on their view of the Mil) interpret scripture. It is the genernal difference between Amill (full pret) Postmils (partials) and us Premills (yet to be fulfilled). I might be wrong, but I think that is correct.



    The phrase simply implies it is a specific or purposed Day in which God will concumate His planned wrath. However, in the main it is about (though at times is paralelled) to that Last Great Day. Therefore we are take the Day of the Lord in the context of the passage it was written in while keeping in mind what it represents (the Great Day of the Lord).
     
    #6 Allan, Oct 16, 2007
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  7. TCGreek

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    1. What then is apocalyptic literature?

    2. I'm somewhat a newcomer to the premil position, for it makes more sense to me, but I still have some unresolved questions.
     
  8. npetreley

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    It's an excuse for ignoring the literal interpretation of something. ;)

    There are just too many references to the Day of the Lord being preceded by the same signs for me to write it off as symbolic. The Bible says, again and again, that the sun will go dark and the moon will turn to the color of blood, and these things will be accompanied by some dramatic celestial event (described as the stars falling from heaven, the sky receding like a scroll, etc.). These signs always precede the return of the Lord and the Day of the Lord's wrath/vengeance.

    When will this happen? Look at Matthew 24:

    It happens immediately after the great tribulation (the distress of those days, which refers back to Matthew 15+). And, if you want to know when the rapture occurs, it occurs at that same time (the Day of the Lord), as shown by verse 31.

    Here's the mistake most people make in order to dispute this conclusion and go for pre-trib instead. They conclude that if the rapture occurs after the great tribulation, we will know when it occurs and it won't be a surprise, since the great tribulation must last 3 1/2 years after the man of sin is revealed. What they fail to note is what Jesus said in verse 22.

    The great tribulation is cut short. He does not say how much it is cut short, just that it is cut short. Therefore we can NOT know the day and hour of His return. We only know that, after the man of sin is revealed, it will be "real soon now".
     
  9. skypair

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    Yes, I believe there is and yet will be a double fulfillment of this passage in Joel (which demonstrates too that there are TWO folds or "dispensations" of "sheep"). The last and COMPLETE will be on this wise (IMO): Russia are the locusts Joel saw attacking from the north (re: "northern armies" 2:20; also see Ezek 38-39 and Dan 11:40).

    But Israel has a "head's up" and calls a fast at the temple (we're seeing midtrib here). God does answer their prayers and destroy Russia/"king of the north"/"Gog" with His own hands (I surmise at this time it will be a "Tunguska-like" meteor event).

    Those in Jerusalem will rejoice (144,000 may actually see Christ as Messiah at that time). Joel 2:30 will be subsequent. T0 me, these are the 3 first trumpets which together are nuclear war (as "pillars of smoke" indicate) between EU, Russia, and USA (Also see Ezek 39:6 [Russia], Rev 18:8 [USA], and Rev 17:16 [EU] in the latter of which AC is "slain" - not). In the 5th trump, the demon from the pit emerges from there to indwell him.

    You can see these things happening in pretty quick succession then. So look at the locusts in Joel 2 as tanks and helicopters I would say -- a land assault on Israel and their destruction between the seas in northern Israel.

    As to pretrib view --- DOTL only happens when Israel is being dealt with. The church is never promised or warned it will suffer DOTL wrath. But that IS dispensationalist thinking. All who see no difference will likely be postrib. What postribbers see as rapture is really just the resurrection of the OT and trib saints.

    As to the "cut short" nuance: The 6 vials allow Israel to go back to Jerusalem and cleanse the temple 1150 days (of 1260 that remain) after the AoDesolation. That is why there is a final assault on Jerusalem --- that is what Dan 8:12-14 speaks about. (This was NOT fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes within the literal 1150 days nor 2300 days (which 2300 actually refers to 2 per day sacrifices or 1150 days).

    skypair
     
    #9 skypair, Oct 16, 2007
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  10. Grasshopper

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    Bingo! If one spends anytime in the OT they will see how these phrases are used:

    Isaiah describesw the fall of babylon at the hands of the Medes:

    Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

    Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

    Look how it is described:

    Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

    Notice John Gill's comments:

    Isa 13:10 - For the stars of heaven,.... This and what follows are to be understood, not literally, but figuratively, as expressive of the dismalness and gloominess of the dispensation, of the horror and terror of it, in which there was no light, no comfort, no relief, nor any hope of any; the heavens and all the celestial bodies frowning upon them, declaring the displeasure of him that dwells there:

    The judgement on Egypt is described in similar fashion:

    Eze 32:7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
    Eze 32:8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.

    Again Gill:

    I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light; all which figures are sometimes made use of to denote the dissolution of kingdoms and states: the "heaven" being an emblem of a kingdom itself; the "sun" of an emperor or king, or kingly power; the "moon" of the queen, or of the priesthood; the "stars" of nobles, princes, counsellors, and such like eminent persons, useful in government; who being destroyed or removed, the light and glory, the prosperity and happiness of a kingdom, are gone;

    So the question becomes, why when we come to Matt 24:29 do we insist Jesus means it in a different way than how the Prophets of the OT used it?

    Mat 24:29 -

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    John Lightfoot understood:

    The sun shall be darkened, etc.] that is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both.

    Albert Barnes understood:

    Shall the sun be darkened ... - The images used here are not to be taken literally. They are often employed by the sacred writers to denote "any great calamities." As the darkening of the sun and moon, and the falling of the stars, would be an inexpressible calamity, so any great catastrophe - any overturning of kingdoms or cities, or dethroning of kings and princes is represented by the darkening of the sun and moon, and by some terrible convulsion in the elements. Thus the destruction of Babylon is foretold in similar terms Isa_13:10, and of Tyre Isa_24:23. The slaughter in Bozrah and Idumea is predicted in the same language, Isa_34:4. See also Isa_50:3; Isa_60:19-20; Eze_32:7; Joe_3:15.

    The burden of proof is on the futurist who insist this must be taken in a "literal" sense. A little education in hermeneutics led me out of dispy land.

    Funny, those who insist on a "literal" interpretation ignore Peter's words:

    Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
    Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


    Peter didn't say "this is like that" or "part of this is like that", he said "this is that". How do "literalist" get around this?
     
  11. TCGreek

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    I totally reject this locusts=tanks and helicopters, since Joels says that the Locusts are like horses and chariots (2: 4,5).
     
  12. TCGreek

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    Here are four views on the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32:

    The second major problem in the book concerns the fulfillment of Joel 2:28 32 (3:1 5 in the Hebrew Bible). Peter quotes this passage (Acts 2), and the question concerns the relationship of Joel's passage to the day of Pentecost. There are several views:

    1. Joel's passage was fulfilled partially in his own day and was terminated at the day of Pentecost. This view was held by Grotius and some Jewish commenta¬tors but is largely rejected because the context of Joel is clearly eschatological (Freeman, Introd. to the OT Prophets, p. 154)

    2. The Joel passage found fulfillment in Acts 2. E.J. Young is representative of this view. It should be rejected because the context of Joel is millennial, and the Spirit simply was not poured out on all flesh as Young assumes (Freeman, Introd. to the OT Prophets, p. 154)

    3. The Joel passage is not fulfilled in Acts 2. Ryrie says concerning the Acts 2 passage, the fulfillment of this prophecy will be in the last days, immediately preceding the return of Christ, when all the particulars (e.g., [Joel 2:31] and Rev. 6:12) of the prophecy will come to pass. Peter reminded his hearers that knowing Joel's prophecy, they should have recog¬nized what they were seeing as a work of the Spirit, not a result of drunkenness (Ryrie Study Bible note at Acts 2:16 21).

    Elsewhere Ryrie has said that Peter used Joel 2 as a homiletical device to draw people's attention to the fact that the Holy Spirit, not drunkenness, explained what they had seen and to urge people to call on the name of the Lord (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21) (Charles Ryrie, "The Signifi¬cance of Pente¬cost," Bib. Sac. 112 [October December 1955]:334). In a similar vein Applewhite goes a bit further and says that Peter's use of Joel was theological (Barry Applewhite, "Chronological Problems of Joel" [Th.M. thesis, DTS, 1976], p.45).

    In support of this view it has been pointed out that Peter does not use the normal fulfillment formula like he did in Acts 1:16. The "This is that" (KJV) or "This is what was spoken" (NIV) could mean that the same Holy Spirit was at work in the outpour¬ing on Pentecost. Further, it has been pointed out that the work of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was His baptizing act to usher in the church age while the fulfillment of Joel 2 will be to usher in the millennium. Finally, it should be noted that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Joel will be fulfilled after Israel's national repentance. This view is correct as far as it goes but does not adequately explain the relationship between the day of Pentecost and Peter's use of Joel 2. The fourth view seems to solve this problem.

    4. Peter's use of Joel 2 is an illustration of the law of double reference. Peter in Acts 2 used Joel 2:28 32 as a proof that the advent of the Spirit on the day of Pente¬cost was the fulfillment of prophecy anticipated in Joel. This parallels Ezekiel 36:25 27, where the prophet proph¬esied the future ministry of the Spirit in promoting obedience to the decrees of God. This fulfillment actually fulfills the eschatological significance of the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Similarly, Passover was fulfilled in the death of Christ. Thus, both the death of Christ and the advent of the Spirit fulfilled their respective antecedent feasts. They are not to be repeated. Both are fulfilled.

    The second reference, however, refers to the experiential benefits or blessings that would follow national repentance. This fulfillment of Joel 2, in its larger context, will take place at a later time at the end of the Tribulation and will usher in the millennium and be accompanied by the signs in the heavens as seen in the seven bowls of the wrath of God (Rev. 16) just preceding the Second Advent of Christ.

    Thus, it can be said that Peter used Joel to prove that the advent of the Spirit was the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy and that "this" day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of the predicted "day of Pentecost" (Acts 2:1; Lev. 23:15 22). Peter also used the Joel passage to urge his hearers to repentance (Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21, 38 41). Peter does not deal with the final fulfillment of Joel 2 in the coming day of national repentance following the signs in the heavens (Joel 2:30 31). These anticipated blessings of this event are dealt with in Joel 3 (chap. 4 in Heb.)

    2. The 4th view seems to be the more favorable view in light of the scriptural data. Check out the full article:http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=5022
     
  13. skypair

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    Yeah, so what's new? :laugh: Implements of war = implements of war. I'm almost positive Joel knew what tanks and helicopters looked like, aren't you?


    Only problem with #4 is that there are no "pillars of smoke." So it was NOT fulfilled. #3 is my choice. But after all that explanation, I can't believe you would take the article over investigating the passages I gave. I thought you wanted to learn about future events(??).


    skypair
     
    #13 skypair, Oct 17, 2007
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  14. npetreley

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    Obviously, everyone has a different take on the signs sun=dark, moon=blood, stars fall, etc. I suggest you do a study on these signs and see how consistently they are associated with the Day of the Lord's wrath. It has been years since I did this study, but I believe all but one or two references is crystal clear.
     
  15. skypair

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    npetrely --- there are about 4 times in the tribulation where these signs will be manifested.

    1) 6th seal (Rev 6:12)

    2) 4th trumpet (8:12)

    3) 5th vial (16:10)

    4) Christ's return (which follows the 7th plagues in Rev 16:17-21)

    Do you really only see one such event? See, "signs in the heavens" are also AC's forte.

    skypair
     
  16. TCGreek

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    1. Even as I look into Future events, discernment is in order.

    2. Right now, I favor the 4th view, but I might change as I weigh the scriptural data. BTW, this is one DTS guy challenging the renown Dr. Ryrie.
     
  17. npetreley

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    Your response has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what I'm talking about. Which tells me that it's really you, skypair, and not some imposter.
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    You mean like the "day of the Lord associated with the destruction of Babylon?

    Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

    Then described in the next verse as such:

    Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


    Or "the day of the Lord" dealing with Idumea:

    Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

    And this "day of the Lord" was described this way:

    Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
    Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.



     
  19. npetreley

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    Yes, actually. Both point to the same future event.

    Last time I checked, Babylon is still inhabited.

    Last time I checked, people are still passing through it.
     
  20. TCGreek

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    .......... Wew!
     

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