Is John Hagee Baptist?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Boanerges, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. Boanerges

    Boanerges
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    Someone told me the other day that John Hagee was preaching a dual covenant theology. I went on the internet, and this is one of the statements that I found:

    quote:

    If just the above were all that could be reported on John Hagee, some might say there should not be major concern and there probably would not be. So what that he is divorced, a promoter of word-faith teaching and its proponents, and a slick marketeer for religious goods and products? So what that he showed insensitivity to African-Americans? It can all be overlooked since he helps so many and sends so much money to Israel, not to mention his contesting the service and fees of the U.S. Postal Service.
    Yet, of additional and more serious concern is that Hagee reported to the Houston Chronicle that he believes that Jews already have a covenant with God and a relationship to God and do not need to come to the cross. Hearing this is startling. Hagee told the newspaper:
    “I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.”9
    This certainly is a shocking statement in the light of Jesus’ words that “no man comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). John further writes, in his first Epistle: “He who does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:12).
    The Apostle Paul, as well, would say the opposite of Hagee: “I do not set aside the grace of God: for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain” (Galatians 2:21). Paul is affirming that nothing that the Old Testament offered could avail apart from the death of Jesus.
    The Houston Chronicle article further reported:
    “John Hagee, fundamentalist pastor from San Antonio and friend of Israel, is truly a strange fish. ... The man has a mission. He’s out to attack anti-Semitism. He also believes that Jews can come to God without going through Jesus Christ.”10
    The Houston newspaper then quoted Hagee’s own shocking words: “I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.”
    And further revealed:
    “In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ he said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.”11
    Hagee went on to tell the Houston reporter that Paul abandoned the idea of Jews knowing Christ when he went to the Gentiles. Jewish evangelism, both presently and in antiquity, is not a failure as Hagee stated but a huge success as many missions and missionaries can report.
    Christian Research Institute has also reported on this highly unorthodox view held by Hagee:
    “Information about Hagee from other sources reveals he seriously differs with the vast majority of dispensational teachers because he believes that Jewish people do not need to be saved, since they are under a different covenant.”12

    http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm


    There were many more discussions on this topic quoting other things that Mr Hagee had said in the past that related to dual covenant theology.

    http://www.inplainsite.org/html/two_covenant.html

    http://www.invitation.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=218
     
  2. Psalm 100

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    John is actually Assembly of God and a strong dispensationalist.
     
  3. webdog

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    Cornerstone is non denominational, not AOG.
     
  4. Johnv

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    webdog is correct. Cornerston Church in San Antonio, TX is nondenominational.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    If Hagee is Baptist, then Dr. Bob must be Muslim.
     
  6. Boanerges

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    hmmmmmm....I wonder.....
     
  7. atestring

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    John Hagee was Assembly of God.
    Cornerstone Church is non denominational.
    I doubt if Brother Hagee's doctrine would be different than the Assemblies of God.
    The Assemblies of God are a great Fellowship of God's People. They like other groups have their politics that may or may not fit certain ministries.
    Regardless of wheither John Hagee is nondenominational ( As all Baptist claim to be) or wheither he was Assembly of God. he is a man that should be listened to.
    He is not perfect (only 3 people on the Baptist board even claim to be perfect) but he is a Godly man that has a passion for preaching righteousness and raising Godly standards.
    May people think he is Baptist because of the red carpet and white pews and the Pastors throne that he sits on.
     
  8. Boanerges

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    If he is preaching a two covenant theology, then it really doesn't matter how much money he gives to Israel, because in the final analyses, he is helping to lead the Jewish people to hell. Jesus told Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher of the Law, that unless a man be born again, he could NOT see and will NOT enter the Kingdom of God.

    John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Jesus warned us:

    Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  9. Linda64

    Linda64
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    Originally posted by Boanerges:
    That's what I have heard too, Boanerges. Here is an excerpt from an article about John Hagee's "Other Gospel"

    THE OTHER GOSPEL
    OF JOHN HAGEE

    CHRISTIAN ZIONISM AND ETHNIC SALVATION


    by G. Richard Fisher

    “An astonishing and horrible thing has been committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule by their own power; And my people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?” (Jeremiah 5:30-31).

    “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek” (Romans 1:16).

    Most people who see and hear the Rev. John C. Hagee are impressed. He is rotund, strident, authoritative (and could well pass for Rush Limbaugh’s older and more serious brother). His delivery alone gives the impression of one who really knows what he is talking about. However, careful evaluation of the teachings of Hagee, pastor at the San Antonio-based Cornerstone Church, reveals false teaching and a defective view of a basic and essential issue regarding salvation and the Gospel. Hagee preaches another way of salvation for the Jew, which is in direct violation of Paul’s warnings in Galatians 1:6-9.

    This theological concept, which has many forms, is primarily referred to as the “Two Covenant” or “Dual Covenant” theory.

    Hagee’s web site tells us that his “vision is for world evangelism. The burning passion of his heart is to win the lost to Jesus Christ in America and around the world.” That statement is not altogether true since he will not evangelize Jews and teaches salvation on another basis than the Gospel for the Jewish people.

    http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

    I praise God that the "Gentile" lady who led me to the Lord in 1974 did not believe that nonsense--otherwise, I would be on my way to a Christless eternity. Doing good works and being friends with Israel is one thing--but not sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with the Jewish people is heretical, IMHO.
     
  10. Boanerges

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    todah...tov maod akhoti!

    y'Barekha Adonay v'yish'm'rekha :)
     
  11. Gup20

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    John Hagee is a DCT (dual covenant theology) believer.

    The primary tenant of DCT is that the Jews and Christians have two distinctly separate covenants which are capable of getting them to heaven. The Christians believe you get there through faith in Jesus Christ, the Jews believe in the Law and the coming of the messiah.

    My church is currently going through a controversial struggle with this theology. Of course any theology which says you can get to the Father in heaven by any other means besides faith in Jesus Christ is considered apostasy of the highest order by many.

    Because of my church's struggle in this regard, I have done my own study into the issue, and this is the conclusion I have come to - dual covenant theology is a deception from the enemy.

    If you look at the Abrahamic covenant in Genesis 15-17 where the "Jewish covenant begins" (the circumcision), you can see the beginning of mankind's redemption from sin and death.

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Romans 5 is referencing Adam, and his sin. This sin brought death - the only punishment for sin - into the world for the first time (which makes it hard to believe in millions of years of 'survival of the fittest', don't you think). Genesis 15 gives us a glimpse of hope in Abraham's covenant with God.

    Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
    5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
    6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    It was Abraham's faith that was counted for righteousness. So from the very beginning, the covenant given to Abraham was by grace through FAITH, and not by works - by the PROMISE of God to Abraham, not by the LAW. Here, the law had not yet been given, and Abraham found favor in God's eyes -- and was found righteous.

    Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    We know that Isaac - the child of promise - also is a foreshadow of Christ. In fact, the "Seed" promised to Abraham through which all nations of the world would be blessed is Jesus Christ. Notice it doesn't say seeds (plural) but seed (singular).

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    So the promises made to Abraham were made to his Seed - Jesus Christ - not to Abraham's physical descendants the Jews. Those who receive eternal life (part of the promise) do so by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

    1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.

    Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

    So the 'seed of Abraham' are not the Jews, but Christians. Jesus himself confirms this in John 8:

    Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
    34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.
    36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

    We can see from verse 56 that from the beginning, Abraham was looking to Christ - the promise.

    Have laid this foundation, we can examine Romans 11 - which is seen by many to be the reasoning for Dual covenant theology.

    In Romans 11, it says:

    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    My pastor believes that the phrase "all Israel will be saved" refers to "spiritual Israel". He also believes that "spiritual Israel" is defined as those Jews who believe in their covenant.

    My church is a Word of Faith church. WoF is often called the "name it and claim it" or the "seed faith" or some other name. One of the prevalent doctrines in WoF is the prosperity doctrine. One major tenant of the prosperity doctrine is that every good and perfect gift is from God, and the devil is there to kill, steal destroy. Like most doctrine, there is a measure of truth and a measure of deception there. Our church believes that it would go against the character of God to blind the nation of Israel, and then deny them salvation when they continue believing their covenant. However, that is, in my opinion, exactly what God did.

    Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    The book of Galatians refutes entirely the doctrine of dual covenant theology. Verse 32 of Romans 11 gives us a glimpse - it says that ALL Jews who believe in their covenant had to be counted as 'unbelievers'. This means - quite frankly - that all Jews who believe in their covenant are going to hell if they do not believe in Jesus Christ before they die.

    Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    When you die, you are immediately judged. You cannot come to belief in Christ after you die. What you believe here by faith is the test. For example, look at the story of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. We know from the Bible that Abraham went to hell when he died, as did everyone before Christ. However, because of Abraham's righteousness, he was spared the torment of hell. We assume that "Abraham's bosom" is also known as "paradise".

    Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    Here was a rich Jew who died. If it were possible for this man to believe after he died, and go to Abraham's bosom, he certainly would have. There would be no reason to remain there in torment - you could see the truth for what it was then... but by then it was too late.

    Hebrews Chapter 11 gives us a sort of "faith hall of fame". Being from a "word of faith" church, this is one of the regular scriptures we are taught on. The chapter starts by defining faith for us, and then moves on to great people of faith.

    At the end of this chapter it says:

    Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    This describes the purpose of Abraham's bosom. Like Abraham, all these 'faith hall of famers' were people who died in faith. But faith in what? Faith in Jesus Christ! Like John 8 says - Abraham looked forward to Jesus' day, and was very glad when it came. Abraham looked to the day when God's promise would be fulfilled... and in Christ it was fulfilled.

    Galatians puts the nail in Dual Covenant Theology's coffin.

    Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    We Christians are the children of promise, and heirs together with Christ according to the promise God gave Abraham. The Jews have their covenant - and the Law. But what good is it? The purpose of the law is to demonstrate that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The law cannot save anyone, the law can only damn everyone.

    Galatians says flat out - there are two covenants ... one is of the law and leads to death, and one is by promise and leads to life. It describes the hidden mystery in the account of Abraham, Ishmael, and Isaac. Galatians 4:24 basically tells us that the Jewish people are "spiritual Ishmael" and that Christians are "spiritual Isaac".

    Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
    30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
    31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

    In order for Isaac to receive his promise - his inheritance - Ishmael had to be cast out. Ishmael is the oldest son of Abraham, and the rightful heir. But he had to be banished for Isaac to receive the inheritance.

    So too the Jews had to be counted as unbelievers for salvation to come to the Gentiles. But in doing so, salvation is now available to ALL mankind through Jesus Christ - both to the Jew and to the Gentile. Whereas no Jew could keep the law before, now all Jews who believe in Jesus can be saved.

    Interestingly enough, the prophecies of Ishmael given in Genesis line up very well with Israel:

    Gen 16:12 [speaking of Ishmael] And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

    Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
    21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

    Twelve princes will come out of Ishmael - sounds like the twelve tribes of Israel. Remember prophecy is not necessarily literal, though it may be both literal and non-literal (God is clever that way).
     
  12. Gup20

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    Incidentally --- it occurred to me as Romans 11 says:

    Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    One of the other Primary Tenants of Dual Covenant Theology is that - since their own covenant gets them to heaven, there is no need to evangelize or proselytize the Jews. I think this verse in Romans gives us a mandate to bring Christ to the Jews.

    John Hagee is very political about the Jews and the land rights they have in Israel. He believes the Abrahamic covenant grants them these rights. However, properly understood those land rights were not promised to Abraham's genetic decendants:

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    So if the promises were made to Seed, not seeds, doesn't that make Christians joint heirs with Christ according to the Promise God gave Abraham, and therefore the rightful land owners of Israel?

    Strange that US foreign policy is seemingly dictating who gets what land over there... but not so strange when you realize that it is OURS to give. Hagee doesn't realize it, but if he really wants those Jews in Israel to qualify for those land rights, he needs to go get as many of them saved as possible --

    But Hagee isn't going to do that because it's against his Dual Covenant Theology. He does'nt preach Jesus to the Jews.
     
  13. eloidalmanutha

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    I don't want to go off topic, and am willing to start another thread, if you are interested, but you have contridicted yourself. If every gift of God is good and perfect, then why would God mix truth and deception and want us to dig through trash to find truth?

    To tie this up with this thread - many christians believe that they can "eat the fish and spit out the bones", so they are content to listen to someone like Hagee even when he is in obvious error - "it won't be long before a bone or two gets stuck in their throats", as a friend of mine once said.
     
  14. Johnv

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    I think the issue of eating the fish and spitting out the bones referrs to gleening the truth from occaisional human error, which every pastor is prone to. It does not, however, refer to gleening the truth from a pastor whose main focus in preaching consists of error and/or deception.

    There's a hugh difference between aspirin and stricknine when one has a headache.
     
  15. eloidalmanutha

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    A little stricknine or a lot - so how much will kill ya? :eek:
     
  16. Brother James

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    Whatever Hagee is he is a heretic.
     
  17. webdog

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    Of course he is :rolleyes:

    If you don't agree with everything he says he must be!
     
  18. Boanerges

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    Of course he is :rolleyes:

    If you don't agree with everything he says he must be!
    </font>[/QUOTE]OK webdog, let's review this. Hagee preaches a two covenant theology. Jesus told Nicodemus who was:

    A) a Jew

    B) A Prarisee who observed and taught the Law, and even had a glimpse of who Jesus was,

    that unless a man is born again, he can not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    This is not opinion webdog. This is scriptural fact from the mouth of Jesus.
     
  19. Gup20

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    While I believe this to be true, it is equally errant to think that God is incapable or unable to use a heretic for good. It is a trap as old as time to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. Yes, this doctrine is of the devil, and yes it is complete heresy... however there are things Hagee does in his ministry that bears fruit.

    For example, I know that he is in the process of organizing cross-denominational groups to stand in solidarity with Israel over many issues - including land rights - that the nation of Israel faces today. This, I believe, is a good thing. I do believe that Hagee is thoroughly decieved, however, regarding the issue of Dual Covenant Theology. I don't believe Hagee is evil - I think he is decieved. Evil men know the truth and do what's wrong anyway. I think Hagee is doing what he thinks is right - though most of us believe him to be wrong.

    Therein lies the question -- why buck the trend, go out on a limb, or go against mainstream and expose yourself to all the unneccessary criticism... especially when your position is so contradicted by the scripture? The root of the problem is humanism. I think humanism - the respect for men mattering more than the respect for God - is the American church's biggest problem right now. We must return to God being the supreme authority, and the Bible -- God's Word -- being ultimately authoritative.
     
  20. Gup20

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    You can start a new thread if you like. I don't necessarily agree with everything in the WoF stream, I was simply explaining the background to my pastor's belief. If you think that God's Word is a mixture of truth and decpetion, then we certainly don't agree.
     

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