Is Legalism a "Higher" Standard?

People who insist on men wearing coats and ties are trying to hold onto a cultural standard that is no longer held by our culture. Watch old news reels and you will see that men wore coats and ties everywhere - walking in the park, ball games, work, etc. I remember watching a movie made in the 1950's - the looters wore coats and ties!

A coat and tie is not a biblical standard. It is a man-made attempt to hold onto a past that is now dead.

We should be using the fruit of the Spirit to evaluate people and ministries. The fruit of the Spirit transcends culture.

 

Hehehe! I'm a polo/dockers kinda guy. I used to be a strict shirt/tie guy on Sundays. But since I no longer wear them for work, I no longer wear them for church. Oh, I probably will for Christmas Eve.

But it's cold here at Christmas: Darn near 65 degrees!!!

Oh, and sometimes the Mrs wears skirts, and sometimes she wears pants. You may recall my wife is Indian. Sometimes she'll wear Indian attire to church. She doesn't very often, because it seems that there's the occaisional ignorant person who views it as "heathen" attire.

I tell her to wear whatever she wants. She's never been immodest in her attire.

 

Very true!

 

Several years ago I read a report about a man who was wearing a tie and operating a wood planer. The tie got sucked in and the man hit his head and died. He was literally dead.

 

Thank you Pastor Larry and Helen.

And let me say, as the one who unapologetically now uses the terms "higher" and "lower" in regards to standards.

In another discussion a few weeks ago, I honestly tried to begin using a different phrase for what I mean. I said "stricter" and "looser" instead, out of respect for the one I was discussing something with. However, within 3 or 4 posts I had then been criticized by someone ELSE for using "stricter" and "looser".

You just cannot please everyone all of the time....and those who get themselves all twisted up about "higher" and "lower" need to realize that just because they INFER something does not mean that Ive actually IMPLIED it.

"Higher" and "lower" does not designate more or less spiritual. Nor is it a legalistic phrase. It is merely where one falls on the "measuring stick" that all of US use to discuss issues with.

There is someone here who has chosen a "higher" standard of eating....he eats mainly kosher. I can say his standard in that area is higher than mine, that doesn't mean I think his is closer to God, NOR does it mean that I think he's legalistic, because I don't.

If you don't want to call it "higher" or "lower", fine....but its not right to go around criticizing and assuming that the person who does is legalistic.

 

and I don't know what kind of churches you people go to, but Ive never been to a church where anyone was FORCED to wear any specific thing. You all make us sound like the Gestapo! Its ridiculous!


Interesting note about Johnv's church which perhaps he will be willing to comment on.....

someone else said they've been there and NNE wears a suit. Does that mean that those with suits on are not welcome? Does that mean that his church is "forcing" the men to wear more casual clothing?

and Dr. Bob? No one in here has ever said that wearing only skirts would MAKE a woman more Godly. If you've ever gotten that from anything Ive posted its because of your own preconceived notions which pop up just because I said "only dresses."

[ December 13, 2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: bapmom ]

 

There are some men who wear coats, others who wear ties. Most dress "business casual". People are welcome as they are.

No, it's a comment on what most people at my church wear. But no one thinks ill of those who dress more formally.

 

Say what you want, my experience among IFBers is that "higher" standards always equaled "more right or spiritual" (in their minds). That is how I was trained to think in fundy circles. Do you know how many times as a young person I heard that the SBC churches were larger than the average IFB church because they had "lower" standards?

I have engaged in conversation enough with bapmom to know she has the same attitude beneath her kindness. She is sincere but underneath lies the same old arguments.

As Bob alluded to, it is not about "convictions" ... it is about "preferences" gone wild.

 

You hit the nail on the head with the phrase "in their minds".

 

This is how I was brought up to think.

 

The church must have real low standards then because the entire Christian church is huge compared to the IFB. The Christian church is made up of all believers.

Some people are so insecure that they must elevate themselves and put others down to make themselves look good.

Isn't that kind of like a drunk trying to make others look bad just so they can look good?

 

This has been my experience as well. 95% of IFBers that I have been around in real life have had this type of attitude.

 

That is a good reason why so many churches in general are dying.

 

Jesus: Ed, I'd like for you to walk with me.

Ed: Sure, Jesus, I'd be glad to walk with you.

Ed: But, you need to understand, I've got some higher standards.
Isn't it kind of showy, Sir, for you to be running round with
those wounds in your wrists, uh, er, hands?
I mean, it would be real easy to put a Rolex on one wrist
and one of those colored rubber bands on the other hand.
What is with the gaudy show of SCARS?

Ed: Hey, speaking of my higher standards.
What is with the facial hair bit? I never did look good in
a beard, to spotty, but you seem to always be wearing one.
And i never could do the mustach stuff, i'd figit and chew
on it when I was bored.

Ed: Say, by the way, Jesus, where are you walking?

Jesus: Ed, I was thinking about walking over to My house
and taking you home with me. Never mind, I can see you are to busy
with your higher standards. I'll check back later.

 

Hey bapmom,

instead of using "higher" and "lower", etc., why not just say "different" standard. Your style of dress is not a "higher" standard than mine, just a "different" standard. Modesty is modesty. There is not a higher and a lower standard of modesty.

 

This has been my experience as well. 95% of IFBers that I have been around in real life have had this type of attitude. </font>[/QUOTE]Never meet my father.

[insert sarcasm]

 

There are some men who wear coats, others who wear ties. Most dress "business casual". People are welcome as they are.

No, it's a comment on what most people at my church wear. But no one thinks ill of those who dress more formally. </font>[/QUOTE]That is the reality I assumed existed within your church, Johnv.

However, in HERE I AM thought ill of because of this standard. Ive got AAG claiming that I think Im better than others and that my "kindness" is just a facade, we've got Dr. Bob calling me a legalist, and a couple others claiming Im in bondage and have not yet found freedom in Christ....that last is just on the brink of claiming Im not really saved.

This is the part thats bothering me. Ive never been this mean to any of you. Yet you all can sit here in judgement of me and my standards as if the fact that you have DIFFERENT standards means you are better than ME. Ive never claimed anything of the kind. Yet most of these posts have come across to me as self-righteous, condescending judgementalism.

 

Filmproducer,

I know your question is an honest one. I do not use the terms "different standards" all that much anymore, for the simple reason that I stated earlier. I TRIED changing my terminology for someone else's sake, and all it got me was more criticism. I have absolutely no doubt that if I started saying "different" instead, someone else would come along and have some sort of issue with that too.

I cannot please everyone all of the time. I have defined what I mean by "higher" and "lower" and if people can't accept that then it is their perception that needs to change.

Yes, there most certainly ARE higher degrees of modesty. Muslim women wear veils and robes from head to toe. This would be a very high standard of modesty. You do realize too, there are many Muslim women who choose this standard for themselves. They are not all forced into it. Some of them actually believe it. And I wouldn't argue with them about it, either.

Anybody think that people in a nudist colony just have a "different" standard of modesty? No, we all say their standard is pretty low, and because it falls lower than anyone else's here on this board, no one would have a problem with saying that.

This issue with "higher" and "lower" seems to me just to be a case of oversensitivity and inferring something from someone's words without just cause.