Is Michael Jesus?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Boanerges, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. Boanerges

    Boanerges
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    Is Michael the arch angel really Jesus as the Adventist teach?
     
  2. Johnv

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    Whether one speaks English, Italian, French or Spanish, the answer is the same.

    No.

    That's a bit obvious. I's scratching my head as to why you're asking.
     
  3. Boanerges

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    Whether one speaks English, Italian, French or Spanish, the answer is the same.

    No.

    That's a bit obvious. I's scratching my head as to why you're asking.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am not asking for myself. Bob, who is an Adventist said that he wanted to discuss some other Adventist beliefs, so I started these threads.
     
  4. Johnv

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    Oh, ok, that makes sense.

    To the point, I can find nothing in scripture that suggest or implies that Jesus and Michael are the same.
     
  5. Boanerges

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    A) show me a scripture where Michael received worship

    B) show me a scripture where any angel received worship

    worship of angels is forbidden worship in Judaism.
     
  6. Johnv

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    There is no such scripture, to my knowlege. I agree with you. Worshipping of angels as deities was, in my understanding, scripturally forbidden by the OT jews.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Wow! that one "deserves a quote" Why don't you go ahead and provide it??
     
  8. BobRyan

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    I feel a Mark 2:27 moment coming on here
     
  9. Boanerges

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    Wow! that one "deserves a quote" Why don't you go ahead and provide it?? </font>[/QUOTE]Wasn't it you that said I should start a thread on the feasts? That was you, wasn't it?
     
  10. Kamoroso

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    Jude 1:9 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    This Michael, is referred to as the archangel, it is the voice of the archangel that calls forth the dead from their graves at the second coming. There is no reason to believe that the above verse is talking about anything other than the resurrection of Moses from the dead, and the argument the Devil presented to Michael at the event.

    1Thes 4:16 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    It is the Lord himself that shouts, with the voice of the archangel. The archangel then, is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, who is also referred to as Michael. Did not our Lord and Savior say that he was the resurrection, and the life.

    John 5:27-29 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    It is the voice of Christ that brings forth the dead in Christ from their graves when he returns. So Christ, the archangel, and Michael are all the same person but different titles.

    Dan 10:21 "21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."

    Dan 12:1-2 "1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Rev 12:7 "7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"

    From the above verses it is clear that the title of prince applies to Michael. He is the prince that standeth for thy people, that is the Jews. Christ has always been the mediator between man and God. In this sense, He is the prince that standeth for the people.

    Isa 9:6 "6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

    Daniel speaks of this prince as being connected with the resurrection. When Michael stands up and delivers His people, many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth, or graves, will awake. This is clearly a reference to the resurrection.

    Rev 12:7 says that Michael and his angels fought the dragon and his angels. Christ calls the angels his many times in the scriptures, especially in connection with his return and the resurrection.

    Matt 16:27 "27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

    Matt 13:41 "41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

    Matt 24:31 "31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    II Th 1:7-8 "7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

    The Lord Jesus Christ has many names, or titles if you will, throughout the scriptures. Christ is not an angel, but one of His titles includes the word angel. This is not an uncommon thing even in the world today. The President is Commander in Chief of the armed forces, yet he himself is not a member of the armed forces. Christ is the commander of the angels, but He Himself is God.

    In the old testament Christ is also referred to as the angel of the Lord. When the angel of the Lord spoke to Jacob, He referred to Himself as God.

    Gen 31:11-13 " 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
    12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.
    13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred."

    When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He was first referred to as the angel of the Lord, and then plainly referred to as the Lord.

    Exod 3:2-4 "2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
    3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
    4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

    According to Paul, it was Christ that was with the children of Israel when they wandered through the wilderness. Christ is always the one who mediates between man and God.

    1 Cor 10:1-4 "1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

    God told the children of Israel that he would send His angel before them. This angel had God's name in Him. This is because this angel was Christ, whom Paul testified was the one who was with the children of Israel in the wilderness experience.

    Exod 23:20-22 " 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
    21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
    22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries."


    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Actually I think it was you on the "Saturday sabbath vs Lunar Sabbath cycles" thread saying that you did not want to discuss the topic of Saturday as the Seventh-day Sabbath (after a few pages going into the subject) and wanted to talk about the feasts instead.

    I simply suggested that a better way to do that was to start a thread actually on that subject rather than derailing and existing thread (a thread started by BenW in this case).

    I guess "this" is your way of doing that?

    What part of it is "feasts"?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Boanerges

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    So Bob, can you show me where Michael received worship?
     
  13. Eliyahu

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    Kamoroso,

    Elohim and Malack must be distinguished.
    Elohim are all angels who are not the party that human beings obey.
    Malack appeared 214 times (in my knowledge) and among them about 50 times it was used for Theopanic Angel, the Special Envoy of God.

    Gen 22, Gen 31:13, Ex 3, Ex 23, Judges 13, they all are Theopanic Angel's.

    Interestingly, that Malack declares " I am God at Bethel (House of God) "
    This Malack was the Pre-Incarnate Yeshuah, Son of God, I have no doubt about that.

    Michael is different from this Theopanic Angel Malack, I believe.

    Gen 48:16 is also, Ha-Malack, Ha-Goel Li,
    which means, The Angel, My Redeemer. Which Angel can shed the Blood?

    This Ha-Malack is extremely important in OT.
    He has all the authority of God and God said

    " My Name is in Him" Ex 23:21

    Who can have the Name of God in Himself?

    I am come in my Father's Name (John 5:43)
     
  14. EdSutton

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    Question of topic- Was Michael Jesus? Trying not to get sidetracked on a tangent, there are, I would say, several possible answers.
    1. No!
    2. Nada!
    3. Nyet!
    4. Nope!
    5. No way, Jose!
    6. Nay! (For the KJVO folks)
    7. 'oude'! (For them smarter than me)
    8. Negative!
    9. Under no circumstances!
    10. Never!

    Uh, are you beginning to notice, in these answers, a bit of a patter...?
    Ed
     
  15. music4Him

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    [​IMG] Ed I think you forgot some other ways to say NO, but I have to agree with you on this topic~ [​IMG]

    Music4Him
     
  16. Bible-boy

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    No!
     
  17. EdSutton

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    Bible-boy! Short and sweet!
    Ed
     
  18. Kamoroso

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    Jude 1:9 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


    1Thes 4:16 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


    John 5:21-29 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    John 11:25 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


    Do you all believe that an angel is the one who will raise the dead, even when Christ Himself has said that He is the one who will? Christ says that it is His voice that the dead will here. Paul says that the Lord HImself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the dead shall be raised.

    The bible never speaks of archangels, or a archangel, only the archangel. If Christ says that it is His voice that will raise the dead, which He does, and the scriptures say that God will shout with the voice of the archangel, and the dead will rise, then the archangel must be Christ, who Himself is the one whose voice raises the dead.

    How say you that an angel will raise the dead? It is not in an angel, or any other created being to do so.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  19. Eliyahu

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    Kamoroso,

    Michael is different from Ha-Malack, Preincarnate Jesus. Read what I posted, even though I have much more study on that.
     
  20. Helen

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    For to which of the angles did God ever say,
    "You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father"?

    Or again,

    "I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son"?

    And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

    "Let all God's angels worship him."
    In speaking of the angels he says,
    "He makes his angels winds
    his servants flames of fire."

    But about the Son he says,

    "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
    and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
    You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy."

    He also says

    "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
    they will perish, but you reamin'
    they will all wear out like a garment.
    You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
    But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end."

    To which of the angels did God ever say,

    "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

    Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?


    Hebrews 1:5-14
     

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