Is Obama a liar?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by SolaSaint, Sep 22, 2011.

  1. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint
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    The AP ran a story today about the truth of what American's pay in taxes, and guess what? Warren Buffet pays over double the percentage in taxes than what his secretary pays (if under $100,000.oo a year).

    See link to a chart I found:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-do-the-rich-really-pay-less-in-taxes/245531/

    So is Obama a liar, or did he spin it somehow? Either way it was misleading. How many koolaid drinkers are going around this week proclaiming the rich pay less in taxes just cause Obama said so?

    Throw the bum out!!
     
  2. righteousdude2

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    Come On Folks, Even Honest Abe...

    ...Wasn't that honest! Being POTUS means there will many times that the person in that office will have to resort to some degree of political spin! :tear:
     
  3. InTheLight

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    The chart is flawed. Obama is not necessarily lying---this time. It depends on the mixture and type of income that the wealthy person earns.

    Consider that FICA taxes are no longer withheld once a person earns more than $106,800. That's an instant drop of 4.2% in tax burden compared to most people. It's true that the top income tax rate on wages is 35% but if a wealthy person makes most of their money from long term capital gains their tax rate is only 15%.

    So it's conceivable that wealthy people pay less of a percentage in income taxes than middle class people. If you add in sales taxes it becomes more likely.

    Quick example: Suppose someone makes $500,000 in W2 wages and earns $5M in long term capital gains. (Simplifying things here) he would pay 35% on the $500,000 and 15% on the $5M. These numbers are $175,000 in taxes on wages and $750,000 on capital gains. So gross income of $5.5M and taxes of $925,000. Dividing that out yields an overall effective tax rate of 16.8%. Take a look at your latest pay stub and see if you pay more or less than 16.8%. For example if you gross $800 a week, you would need to take home more than $670 or so to be taxed less than 16.8%
     
  4. righteousdude2

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    As I Said in My Post On Honest Abe, This Comment...

    ....Is nothing more than political spin! :smilewinkgrin:
     
  5. InTheLight

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    Sorry, but it IS possible for a very wealthy person that derives most of their income from long term capital gains to have a lower effective tax rate than someone making, say, $60,000 a year. That's not spin it's a fact. Now, should taxes be raised on the wealthy because of this anomaly? I don't think so.
     
  6. exscentric

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    I'd guess Obama was just repeating Buffet - have heard him say what Obama said a number of times.

    I have heard or read don't remember which that Buffet is in court over taxes of some sort, supposedly 2 billion worth but have not seen anything in the media about it.
     
  7. SolaSaint

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    Why don't we hear of the fact that around 50% of Americans don't even pay income taxes? The lowest of all get refunded even more than they make.

    If a guy makes $10,000,000.00 in Capital gains then he will owe $1,500,000.00 in Federal taxes, his secretary makes 60K and at say 20% she will pay $12,000.00, and probably get a nice sized refund. I would say the rich guy has paid his FAIR share according to Obama language. Obama says this is unfair and he needs to kick in more? Really!! So he can give it away to shovel ready jobs that never broke ground? I say where is the audit of all that stimulus money, if it didn't create any jobs, then were is it? maybe in a big vault in Chicago. LOL
     
  8. freeatlast

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    In this case I would say no he is not a liar as Warren Buffet is the one who made the claim that he pays less then his secretary.
     
  9. targus

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    I don't think that I would call Obama a liar in this instance.

    Probably more along the lines of willfully ignorant in that he most likely never bothered to consider if it is true or not.

    He just finds it politically expedient to accept it as true on face value.

    I found this article - http://tusb.stanford.edu/2007/07/warren_buffet_has_a_lower_tax.html

    "Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent."

    Ok - first of all no one making $60,000 is paying 30% in federal income taxes.

    Using 2010 - $60,000 less a personal exemption of $3,650 less the standard deduction amount of $5,700 equals $50,650 in taxable income.

    The tax on $50,650 for a single person is $8,838 or 14.73% of $60,000

    Her tax rate of 14.73% is lower than Buffet's tax rate of 17.7%

    Where is factcheck.org on this myth anyway?
     
  10. seekingthetruth

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    Total tax bill

    Regardless of the percentage, Buffet admitted this week to have paid in over $7,000,000 on his 2010 return.

    If his secretary makes $70,000/year then Buffet's tax billl for 2010 was 100 times her salary.

    So yes, Obama intentionally mislead us which makes him a liar.

    John
     
  11. SolaSaint

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    Thanks John... Yes it was Obama who said the rich need to pay their fair share, I wonder what he thinks is a fair share?
     
  12. seekingthetruth

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    I don't know about you, but I didn't pay $7,000,000 in income tax in 2010, so how can I say that he needs to pay more?



    John
     
  13. HankD

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    Or use it to buy a useless solar panel factory for 1/2 billion.

    HankD
     
  14. InTheLight

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    You are correct--they are not actually paying 30%. But your tax rate might be 30% depending on where your gross income falls within the tax bracket. In other words, you could have 30% of your gross income withheld on payday.

    (BTW, I can find nowhere that Buffett specifically said that his secretary pays 30% tax rate, but maybe I just missed it. Buffett's original article is here:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich.html?_r=1 )

    If you are single, claiming 0 withholding allowances, once you hit the $36,600 threshold your federal income tax withholding rate is 25%. Plus you have a 4.2% FICA tax rate and a 1.45% Medicare rate. That's 30.65% total rate.


    You are correct that her net tax rate is probably less than 17.7%, after she files her tax return. However if you take a look at her weekly paycheck stubs you would see this:

    Gross $1,153.85
    FICA 48.46
    Medicare 16.37
    Fed W/H 204.00

    That's $268.83 withheld from $1,153.85 for a tax rate of 23.3%.

    So is Obama lying? No, more like selectively cherry picking potential tax situations to make a point.
     
  15. Borneol

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    Well, Obama is a lawyer by training, and now a politician. I'd say that makes him a double liar - at least in many peoples book. :smilewinkgrin:

    Did enjoy Charles Krauthammer's article today about Obama and his politics. Overall I'm more concerned about the Presidents natural radical tendencies.

    "Radical Returns To Resume The Transformation"

    http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAna...ical-Returns-To-Resume-The-Transformation.htm
     
  16. targus

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    FICA taxes are not income taxes.

    The withholding rate is not necessarily your tax rate. You may be over withholding or under withholding.

    Your explanation is no more honest than either Obama or Buffet.

    And if she changed her exemptions to 20 she wouldn't have any Fed W/H - so would you then say that her tax rate is 0%

    Again - FICA taxes are not income taxes and the withholding rate is not your tax rate.
     
  17. InTheLight

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    Really? So what do you call it, a wage tax?

    From Publication 15, IRS, page 19:
    Generally, you are required to withhold social security and Medicare taxes from your employees’ wages...

    The 2011 employee tax rate for social security is 4.2% (amount withheld)



    This is true. There is the tax rate, which is always the same, but it is adjusted by your withholding exemptions.


    Your explanation that social security withholding is not a tax on income is mind-boggling.



    Like a politician, you're arguing semantics. If she were to claim 20 exemptions her tax rate would still be the same, but her withholding would be decreased. Her FICA tax rate would be 4.2% and her Medicare tax rate would be 1.45%.

    OK, if FICA taxes are not income taxes, on what other form of compensation besides income are they collected against?

    Yes, the withholding rate is the tax rate minus the number of exemptions claimed. But the base tax rate is the same for persons of similar marital status and similar income levels.
     
    #17 InTheLight, Sep 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2011
  18. targus

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    It is called Social Security and Medicare withholding.

    It is only mind-boggling to you due to your lack of knowledge in the area.

    Given your lack of understanding concerning federal income taxes there really is no basis for further discussion with you.
     
  19. InTheLight

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    No, the IRS calls it social security and Medicare "tax".

    From Publication 15, IRS, page 19:
    Generally, you are required to withhold social security and Medicare taxes from your employees’ wages...


    And they call it a "tax rate"

    The 2011 employee tax rate for social security is 4.2%

    Back at you.
     
    #19 InTheLight, Sep 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2011
  20. Salty

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    Targus and ITL, basically you are on the same side - dont fight each other - lets fight the liberals!

    I can see both sides - and who is the winner - Obama!:tear:

    He is getting us to fight each other - lets put some of the minor things aside and fight the common battle
     

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