Is Paradise part of Hell?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gup20, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. Gup20

    Gup20
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    Keith - here is some food for thought (pardon the lame pun).

    Can you walk down Golden Streets without first partaking of the Tree of Life? And where exactly is "paradise" if it is not in heaven?

    Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (said Jesus to the theif next to him on the cross on the day of his death)

    Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. (said Jesus to Mary on the 3rd day after his resurrection)

    So if Jesus told the theif he would be with him in Paradise THAT DAY, but 3 days later had not yet ascended to heaven, is Paradise in Hell?

    According to Eph 4:9 didn't he decend into Hell before ascending to heaven? And what about Psalms:

    Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Is Paradise in Hell then?

    Also consider Lazarus in Abraham's bosom.

    Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    Is this "Abraham's bosom" place Paradise? A part of Hell where there is no torments, but you are still separated from the Father in heaven?

    Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    I think Rev 2 talks about a tree of life that is by a river that flows from the throne and judgement seat of God in heaven. But it says "paradise of God".

    So what happened to the Tree of life in Genesis 1-3? God put a sword-wielding angel to guard it so that no one could get to it. Then is there one here on earth (maybe in Paradise or hell which is beneath the earth), and one in heaven?

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    Eze 31:18 To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with [them that be] slain by the sword. This [is] Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
     
  2. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    It was at one time.
     
  3. LadyEagle

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    Agreed. That is probably the only thing we will ever agree upon on this board, lol.
     
  4. steaver

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    Yes, and after Jesus' ressurrection He led paradise into heaven.

    Eph 4:8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    :jesus:
     
  5. Marcia

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    "Hell" was a translation of a word for grave and also for Sheol, the place of the dead. It's not like hell the way it's used today as the place of eternal punishment. That has not been created yet - technically, that hell is the lake of fire.

    I am the odd woman out - I am not convinced that the 2 compartment theory is true but don't really have time to debate it.
     
  6. Martin Luther

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    lol, nah, I have full faith you will be converted to ML theology. :praying:
     
  7. jofuss

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    Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


    LET ME LET YOU IN ON SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY RATHER WIDELY KNOWN. THE ORIGINAL GREEK HAS NO PUNCTUATION. THE COMMA INSERTED AFTER THE WORD "THEE" AND BEFORE "TODAY" WAS DONE SO BE TRANSLATORS. IT IS INCORRECT.

    THE MEANING IS CORRECTED WHEN THE COMMA IS PLACED AFTER "TODAY":

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS IS SAYING "TODAY I'M TELLING YOU, YOU SHALL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE."

    JESUS DIDN'T GO TO HEAVEN UNTIL HE PRESENTED HIMSELF AS THE WAVE SHEAF FIRSTFRUITS ON 16th NISSAN OF 31 AD - SUNDAY.

    THE THIEF WON'T GO TO HEAVEN UNTIL HE IS RESURRECTED AT CHRIST'S SECOND COMING.
     
  8. Gup20

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    That is an interesting point, but Paradise's location in Hell doesn't hinge on that single verse. I do like Steaver's point which makes sense of the verse regardless of it's punctuation.

    I think we can all agree that - at this moment - paradise is not in hell. Would you agree to that statement jofuss? Steaver? All?
     
  9. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    All O.T. saints are already in heaven.


    Hebrews 12:1
    Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


    Revelation 6:10-11

    10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
     
  10. Gup20

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    ML, I agree the OT saints are in heaven. But I would add that OT saints had to believe in Jesus Christ just as we do

    NO MAN comes to father except by Jesus

    Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    And also:

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    And finally (a list of OT saints who died in faith -- including Rahab, a Gentile -- in Hebrews 11):

    Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
     
  11. Martin Luther

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    I agree but you forgot the best verse.

    1 Peter 4:6
    For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
     
  12. Marcia

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    This has been refuted. This is a position held by the JWs.

    http://www.geocities.com/thewatchtowerstudy/truly.htm
     
  13. Marcia

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    I am not alone in my belief that Paradise is with God. John Pkper notes there are only 2 other places in the NT that use this word, and they both depict heaven:

    http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...81/293_Today_You_Will_Be_with_Me_in_Paradise/

    Also, this commentator believes Paradise is heaven:
    http://www.geocities.com/thewatchtowerstudy/truly.htm
     
  14. Martin Luther

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    Christ is returning with the O.T. saints, those who died after the resurrection will come out of the graves and those still alive will then follow. They meet the Lord in the air and then spend the next 1000 years living with Christ here on earth, not in heaven. All those who have died after the resurrection are excluded from time. To them the journey will seem instantaneous. Some call this soul sleep but time is a matter of perspective.
     

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