Is Progressive Dispensalism Becoming A Large Baptist Theological Viewpoint?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Seems that there has been some interesting theological writtings from those who hold to progressive dispy in Baptist circles now...

    Will this "movement" get traction enought to supplant classic/old school dispy as being the prominent Theology concerning viewing end times and the various dispensasions in the Bible?
     
  2. Van

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    I have no idea how many churches have adopted this view, but since I am a progressive dispensationist, based on Galatians chapter 3 pretty much making nonsense of traditional dispensation.
     
  3. Tom Butler

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    Jesus Fan, and Van,

    For those of us who are behind the times,would one or both of you define progressive dispensationalism, and outline the differences with old-time dispyness?

    This is an example of why I am no longer a dispy. Somebody keeps changing the rules.
     
  4. John of Japan

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    Not going to happen.

    The classic tome on PD is Progressive Dispensationalism, by Craig Blaising and Darrell Bock. It was published way back in 1993, and the institutions I'm familiar with that espoused classical dispensationalism then still do now. The only difference is that now everyone (including oodles of armchair theologians with no training) is on the Internet giving their two yen.
     
  5. JesusFan

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    Think the MAIN difference between classical and pro dispy is on how they view Israel/Church...
    Classic says there are 2 Covenants in place in plan of God, and that the Church was "invisble" totally to OT authors...
    That all promises made to israel apply just to them, Church not included in those plans, will be totally fulfilled at Second Coming onward...

    pros take it that OT "knew" something about Church, and that some of the promises made to Israel "blended" into Church Age... Some of OT prophecies were fulfilled in Church, but NOT having Church replacing/becoming new Israel...

    Both Dispy teach still israel still has a Plan with God, Second Coming pre Mill etc

    Biggest difference is they, pro dispy, tend to 'blur: clear dinstiction between Israel and Church
    Seeing partial OT prophecies fulfilled in Church, unlike Classic who keep clearly apart...
    Almost like there is jsut now 1 Covenant new one ongoing but both jews and gentiles have differing parts of it...

    Jews and gentile now come into the Church, at Sec Coming National Israel than gets fulfilled and saved unto lord...
     
    #5 JesusFan, Mar 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2011
  6. glfredrick

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    I'd suggest that you have hugely missed the ongoing discussions at ETS every year on this issue. Classical dispensationalism is almost a dead player in the Evangelical world, as is classical covenantalism. A modification of either, that in effect brings two worlds together, is the majority position of late.

    New biblical theology that centers on God's election is also on the horizon, and that may transplant both covenantal and dispensational theologies entirely. Can't wait... Both of the former have fatal flaws.
     
  7. JesusFan

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    Would appear that biggest hurdle will be in detailing just HOW God views the Covenant peoples of promise...

    Covenant has it there is now 1 Body, both Jews/Gentiles, in the Church, being new "Spiritual Israel"... same common destiny
    Dispy having both Jews/Getiles in the promise, but 1 group Heavenly, other Earthly..
     
    #7 JesusFan, Mar 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2011
  8. preachinjesus

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    I doubt highly that 98% of our people in the pews and chairs on Sunday would be able to define any of these terms...or care to understand why they're important.

    FTR, I think that progressive dispensationalism is the predominate view of most young pastor graduating from the major evangelical seminaries right now. I also think most of them don't realize that they are progressive dispensationalists.

    Classical dispensationalism has been thoroughly discounted theologically and few academicians hold to it with any veracity. Most are covenantal theologians (a few new covenant guys...but that's really just progressive dispensationalism lite imho) since that has been the historical position of the Church since Augustine (maybe even before that.)

    If anything progressive dispensationalism is been getting an upswing as a result of reaction against the LeHayian version of classical dispensationalism in his little series.

    Most of the young guys I know are progressive dispensationalists...that said most don't care about it. The whole thing is becoming a moot point.
     
  9. glfredrick

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    Both are probably to be listed in the fatal flaws category, as any biblical theology that cannot account for every text of Scripture is fatally flawed. So far, every one I've seen is. I am not offering an alternative, but I am eagerly awaiting some glimmers that I've seen during my studies under a handful of the men who are working in that regard. They are paid to research at that level, alas, I am not. This study is one of those "life-works" sort of deals, the way I see it. No mere statement of fact will handle it simply and efficiently. The reconciliation with Scripture process is all-encompassing!

    FWIW, I "admire" (even if I do not believe or hold as valid) the work that men have done in the past to arrive at either dispensational or covenantal theology. Both systems took some men their lifetimes to formulate, and they have been modified (as admitted above) numerous times as difficulties have come their way, i.e., how do you fit "that" into your theological framework...

    How much better if we, with the advent of computer-aided Bible study, can actually derive a true framework for a biblical theology that can and does encompass the entirety of the Scripture, dealing with pre-Israel, Israel, the church, and eternity as does the entire Bible! But, as we have seen so often in the history of the church, moving men from where they stand into a fuller understanding that deals with more (or more adequately with) Scripture is always a trial, and there will be lots of fall-out while it happens. Alas, such seems to be our lot, when protecting carved-out positions means more than the ultimate search for truth based on a rightly-divided Word of truth.
     
  10. glfredrick

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    First, I like what you had to say in addition to the part of your post that I cited. I just snipped it because I really don't have any argument.

    About the people in the pews... I suspect that they REALLY do care, and that they would get all out of hand if one tried to explain another system to them that differed from dispensationalism. That is what they learned and any other system will sound like a false gospel to them, even though it is not really "the gospel," but rather a means of categorizing what happens once the gospel has been applied.

    A poll of church people on that issue would be interesting... Especially if it was written well to reduce bias and seek actual understanding of position rather than to lead the one polled into some aspect of this or that theology.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Guy, I would put more credibility in what he says if you base it on geography. Up in the North East, I dont think anyone gives a hoot & holler....ok perhaps the Orthodox Presbys but not a whole lot.
     
  12. glfredrick

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    Perhaps... But with the sales of Left Behind, I'd say that church folk are fairly indoctrinated into a dispy sort of belief unless they've been otherwise exposed. Most can't (or won't) articulate it, but they have it.

    Just whip out one of the wall charts and watch the conversations!
     
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Maybe but in the church & churches I've attended in NJ, most are ex-Catholics struggling with weekly scriptural readings....pathetic but true. Its the "Bible Ignorant Belt" An educated Pastor could bend & twist them anyway he wants to..... to use a Eastern expression... They dont know from it. Sad commentary right?
     
  14. glfredrick

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    Yup... Of course, I've seen it just as bad (or worse) in the Bible belt area. Sometimes I'd rather teach a complete ignorant newbie than try to change the mind of the person who has imbibed bad theology from grandpa's favorite pastor.
     
  15. John of Japan

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    The OP was about Baptists, not the evangelical world in general.
     
  16. jbh28

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    We'll all find out one day...
     
  17. Ed B

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    Speaking as one from the pew, I don't hear much talk about the subject at all amongst fellow laity. My class has about 6 teachers who take turns. Several months back one of them taught a couple of Sundays on end-time prophesy and got into some of the schools of thought presenting his believe and the opposing schools of thought. It was interesting.

    However, he asked the class if they would like for the teachers to continue the end-times teaching for a couple of months and the overwhelming consensus was, "It was interesting for a couple of Sundays, but nah, God will take care of all that. There are more pressing things to search out in Scripture."

    Our age group is the early 40s to late 50's crowd. No doubt that pre-trib Rapture is the predominate belief here, and the Left Behind books came up in conversation with some people (mostly ladies) saying they enjoyed the books. But this class is much more interested in studying Scripture to better understand our Lord, how to better serve Him, and how to better witness and minister to family, Church, friends, and community. I can’t say what the kids are talking about these days, but that is the “view from the pew” in my demographic.

    "View from the Pew" (c) …. Sounds like a good name for a Christian blog.
     
  18. Tom Butler

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    When I was first exposed to eschatology in any depth, it was from a dispensational viewpoint. My pastor at the time started in Daniel and then went to Revelation, and it really sounded good. Then came Hal Lindsey's books, starting with The Late Great Planet Earth. J. Dwight Pentecost published Things to Come. All this was reinforced by Prophecy Conferences, which seemed to spring up on every corner.

    One Sunday a few years later, the next pastor preached from a Historical Pre-mil viewpoint. None of us had ever heard this before, and we rushed him right after the service. He held up his hands and said, "Okay, we're not going to have a debate here. You have an assignment. Find for me a single, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other interpretation passage which teaches a Pre-trib rapture. Bring it back to me and we'll talk about it."

    We couldn't find it. It's not there.

    Messed up my eschatology. I wanted to be a dispy.

    It's not the first time I had to discard a belief I had taken for granted. I've had to junk a couple of others since then. It's not fun.
     
  19. Bob Alkire

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    Brother I think I know what you mean. I was raise as a Calvinist and while in a Calvinist school, it just didn't add up to me with the Scripture, so I discarded that belief and there are others views as well. But I still believe in the dispensational view.
     
  20. JesusFan

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    did not know thought hat one had to be a "pre -tribber" to remain a Dispy...

    I am one, my pastor is the Historical pre Mill camp..

    Aren't both of us still Dispy?
     

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