Is RCC a true christian church?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Justified, Aug 14, 2002.

  1. Justified

    Justified
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    A person from another place on this board asked for this topic to be started. [​IMG]

    So, here it is. :D

    Is the Roman Catholic Church, a true Christian Church? :confused:

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)

    [ August 15, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Justified ]
     
  2. Farmer's Wife

    Farmer's Wife
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2002
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is this a trick question?! :confused: It sure sounds like one to me!

    Didn't the Catholics persecute true Christians in our history? Isn't this the same group that made so many of our ancestors martyrs?!

    "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" ~ Matthew 12:26

    This verse tells me that there is no way we and RCC can both be 'christian' churches! Do they follow the teachings of Christ?

    So, my answer is, NO! :(
     
  3. GrannyGumbo

    GrannyGumbo
    Expand Collapse
    <img src ="/Granny.gif">

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2002
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've never been in a catholic church or had any catholic friends, per se; so anything I know about the RCC, I learned off the 'net. [​IMG]

    By Scriptural standards, the RCC is a false religion that can only expect God's judgment, not a true church that can claim God's blessings.

    Of course like all false teachings, they do contain some truth & this is why so many folks are deceived. They do not realize that counterfeit religion, like counterfeit money, must resemble the genuine in order to deceive those who lack spiritual discernment.

    I think we should all take the time to carefully compare anything we come up against with the truth of God's Word. Then we will know whether it is a carefully crafted counterfeit or the pure, genuine, Biblical faith.

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9(KJBible)
     
  4. BrianT

    BrianT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,516
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maybe it depends on your definition of "true Christian Church".

    I think the RCC has more than it's fair share of error as a Christian church (ie. there are reasons I'm a Baptist and not a Catholic), but I also believe that no group (even Baptists) have a lock on perfect doctrine.

    But despite it's problems, at its core the RCC teaches the Trinity, that Christ died for the sins of the world, rose again, etc.

    Yes, which was wrong. But many groups have persecuted other Christians in the name of their faith. That does not make them non-Christian, just a Christian group that is doing wrong. Even the KJV translators persecuted Baptists. ;)
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I'll give you a short history lesson then let you tell me what you think?... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    A Brief Sketch of the Baptists by Century for Nineteen Centuries
    Elder Ariel West, of Texas, prepared the following brief sketch by century of the Baptists through nineteen centuries. - Taken from The Baptists in All Ages, by Elder J. S. Newman.
    FIRST CENTURY: There were churches in Asia Minor, Southern Europe and England. They were first called Christians at Antioch. Saul persecuted the churches. Nero and Trajan were emperors of the Roman Empire in this century. Small departures by some were made in the churches.

    SECOND CENTURY: Baptists in same countries as first century. Pliny, governor of Bithynia (see Hassell's Church History, page 360). Polycarp was pastor of the Church at Smyrna until his death by burning in about 166 A. D. (see Shackelford, page 54). More departures over a larger territory in this century. Marcus Aurelius Antoninus came to the throne of the Roman Empire.

    THIRD CENTURY: Churches in southern Europe, England, Wales, Asia Minor, and North Africa. Christian churches called Paterines, Novatians and Montanists. Diocletian became Emperor of Rome. Wholesale departures, and the above names of Christian churches given to them by those departing from the faith. (Hassell, p. 367, 377; Ray, p. 315; Robinson's Ecclesiastical Researches, p. 126.)

    FOURTH CENTURY: Churches in same countries as in preceding centuries. Christian churches called Donatists in parts of north Africa; also Puritans in Wales. Constantine the Great became emperor of Rome. Council of Nice held A. D. 325. First recorded infant baptism, 370 A. D. (Hassell, p. 386, 387, 389; Shackelford, p. 49; Orchard, p. 92, 93).

    FIFTH CENTURY: Those departing from the faith established and enforced popery in 416. A new name given to true Christian churches in some localities, to-wit, Cathari.

    SIXTH CENTURY: Catholics call Baptist or Christian churches Ana-Baptists for the first time (Hassell, p. 407-409).

    SEVENTH CENTURY: True Christian churches in Armenia. The Catholics call them Paulicians (Hassell, p. 417; Smith, 359-360).

    EIGHTH CENTURY: True Christian churches still called Ana-Baptists, Donatists. The Catholics originate the doctrine of transubstantiation in 780 A. D. In the first part of this century, Pope Stephen II instituted pouring as a legal ordinance for baptism in the Catholic church.

    NINTH CENTURY: Ana-Baptists in Bulgaria. In this century the Greek Catholics and the Roman Catholics became separate bodies.

    TENTH CENTURY: Baptists in Wales, Italy, and France, and called Paulicians and Ana-baptists in different countries (Smith, p. 359-360).

    ELEVENTH CENTURY: Baptists were in Italy and France under the name of Paulicians and Paterines (Smith, p. 358, 360, 363).

    TWELFTH CENTURY: Baptists were called Paterines, Henricians, Arnoldists and Petrobrussians (Hassell, p. 436, 438; Smith, 219).

    THIRTEENTH CENTURY: Baptists were found in Italy, France, and Germany, and were called Waldenses or Vaudois, Ana-baptists, and Albigenses (Smith, page 570 to 585).

    FOURTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist churches were in Germany, England, and Poland; called Lollards in England, Waldenses and Ana-baptists on the continent (Crosby, Vol. 2, page 46; Orchard's English Baptists, p. 118; Smith, page 251)).

    FIFTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist churches in England and Valleys of Piedmont. In this century John Huss, a reformer, was burned at the stake (1415), but he was not a Baptist. In this century Martin Luther was born (Nov. 10, 1433), but let it be understood that his reformation had no connection with the Baptists. In this century thousands of women and children of the Waldenses were put to death by persecution (Crosby, Vol. 1, p. 18).

    SIXTEENTH CENTURY: Baptists were found in France and Germany under the name of Waldenses. The Lutheran church came out of Rome as a distinct body in about 1552. The Episcopal church came out of Rome in 1534, and the Presbyterian in 1527.

    SEVENTEENTH CENTURY: Baptist Churches were called Waldenses, Baptist, and Ana-Baptist. The first Baptist church in America was organized at Newport, Rhode Island, in 1638 by Dr. John Clarke and eleven others.

    EIGHTEENTH CENTURY: New School Baptist movement was started in England by William Carey and Andrew Fuller. The Methodists became a distinct body from the Episcopal church in 1785.

    NINETEENTH CENTURY: The New School movement spread to America. Black Rock Address, and withdrawal by the Old School Baptists. Campbellites became a distinct sect in 1827.

    References: 1. Hassell: History of the Church of God from Creation to A. D. 1885, by Elders C. B. and Sylvester Hassell. 2. Smith: Smith & Cheetham's Dictionary of Christian Antiquities. 3. Shackelford: J. A. Shackelford's Historical Chart showing the Origin and History of the Baptists, c. 1891. 4. Crosby: Crosby's History of the English Baptists. 5. Orchard's History of the English Baptists
     
  6. Ulsterman

    Ulsterman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,048
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Roman Cathholic Church could never be defined as truly Christian in the biblical sense. Its seven sacraments, worship of saints, infallibility of the pope, relic worship etc all preclude the possibility.
     
  7. Robert J Hutton

    Robert J Hutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2002
    Messages:
    360
    Likes Received:
    0
    Warm Christian greetings!

    I'm the "culprit" who asked for this thread to be started and I'm grateful to Justified for doing so. (Incidentally, Justified, did you know we share the same birth date but I'm 4 years younger!).

    It is not a trick question. There are many well meaning Christians who sincerely believe that the RCC is a true Christian church. Certainly the RCC is more open than it was, and many RCs will happily read the Bible; but the ultimate authority for doctrine is not the Bible but the church, and more particularly the Pope. There are many anti-Biblical doctrines in this "church" and, of course, they commit idolatory by their worship of Mary. All this I know from personal experience.

    While it is true that there are RCs who have found the Saviour despite the system they are in, the RCC itself is not a true Christian church, and Catholics need to be evangelised as those who need to be saved.

    Kind regards

    Robert J Hutton
     
  8. Farmer's Wife

    Farmer's Wife
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2002
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    WHAT?! Well, that explains why our president consulted the pope on the issue of human cloning! :rolleyes: I didn't understand this when I read that article on this board. But, then again, it didn't make sense, back in February, for the president to worship a Shinto god by clapping his hands to wake him! :mad:

    Where are the preachers that usta 'cry aloud and spare not'?! Baptist need to get back to Bible preaching and quit worrying so much about 'offending' someone. We need to be more fearful of offending GOD!
     
  9. clipper

    clipper
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Yes, I believe the RCC is a true Christian church. I may not agree with all of its teachings but then again I don't agree necessarily with all the teachings of Baptist denominations either. Many of my closest Christian friends are Catholic and as we've shared with each other about our church traditions, we've grown in faith in Christ together.
     
  10. Justified

    Justified
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brian,

    Definition of a true Christian Church:

    Teaches the Salvation of man through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, by Faith, and no strings attached. ;)

    And the fact that the RCC teaches about some of the different aspects of Christian beliefs, doesn't make them Christian. They also teach a lot of heresies a long with those teachings. :eek:

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)

    [ August 15, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Justified ]
     
  11. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe the issue of salvation is determined by one's faith in Jesus Christ. If a membor of a Roman Catholic Church has faith in Jesus Christ, then he is saved, regardless if he prays to Mary or not. His praying to Mary is a sin, but thankfully, he, like myself, does not lose his salvation every time he sins.

    That said, the real issue is whether any of them truly trust Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic church teaches a sort of faith plus works salvation. That is not trusting in Jesus Christ, that is trusting in Jesus Christ plus your own works. It can be hard to see the difference when in conversation with them, but the symantics can get very very confusing. I believe that there was true believers in the Roman Catholic Church in the last 2000 years, just perhaps not a lot. Through most of history everybody (in Europe) was "Catholic" simply by birth, much like people in America consider themselves "Christian"

    Is the RCC a true Church? No. Not if most of its members are trusting themselves instead of Christ. But the first sign of error doesn't disqualify it as being a Church. Otherwise, out of all of those posting on the board, only about four could possibly be part of the true Church since we can't agree on anything. It is interesting to read David Cloud and Peter Ruckmann go at each other. You would think their beliefs are perfectly in line but they both accuse each over of not being able to teach Vacation Bible School. I believe both of these men are saved and should be more gracious to one another, and since one is certainly wrong (they both can't be right, things different are not the same!) having a false belief does not disqualify them for eternal life. Not trusting in Jesus does.
     
  12. bjonson

    bjonson
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    0
  13. Justified

    Justified
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tyndale1946,

    Sorry it took so long, but thank you for this post!

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)

    :D

    [ August 17, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Justified ]
     
  14. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    As different as the doctrine of the RCC is from Baprist doctrine, yes the RCC is a true CHristian church: They believe that there is only one God. They believe in the Trinity. They believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the only Son of God the Father. They believe that, to be a Catholic, you must accept that Christ died for our sins and that eternal life comes from accepting Jesus Christ as Savior. The RCC doesn't worship statues or saints, they worship only God. Some of their practices are unusual from a Baptist point of view, but I would not go so far as to say they're unbiblical, lest I be forced to see the baptist plank in my own eye first ;)
     
  15. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    4,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you think that the pope is more spiritual leader or politition?
     
  16. Justified

    Justified
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    Obviously, you have never gone to Catholic school or gone to their Mass, or studied what the priest is doing at communion, or you would never make that statement.

    ”Conservatives- Theology dictates morality/Liberals- morality dictates Theology” Justified Version ;)
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    No they are not.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    The Roman Catholic church is the ungodly offspring of the Roman legal system, pagan religions, and Christian terminology. While there well may be, and undoubtedly are, saved Christians who are still in the Roman Catholic church, the church itself cannot be considered Christian.

    Here are a few pertinent facts:

    1. Their first pope was NOT Peter the Apostle, but Simon Patre, or Simon the Magician. This is one reason God had Luke give him the mention he did in Acts. Peter was never in Rome. Simon the Magician was. A pretty good summary is here:
    http://www.historicist.com/articles/simon_magus.htm

    2. Because a lot of the same terminology was used by both true Christians and followers of Simon Magus in Rome, Constantine had no way of knowing the difference after his dream and when the false form followed what he already understood in terms of religion, he had no trouble adopting it. Thus it was Constantine who adopted the name "Pope", which was a pagan term, for himself and had no trouble declaring himself the head of the Christian religion. After all, wasn't the Caesar the head of all the other Roman religions? In other words, he was already "Pope" -- add one more religion and no problem.

    3. The Roman Catholic church has a history of massacre and mayhem -- by its fruits you will know it.

    4. The Roman Catholic clergy and higher-ups have a consistent history (the newest problems are NOT new!) of sexual and monetary abuses of their power.

    5. The Roman Catholic church allows itself to be combined with paganism in a number of other countries, such as Brazil.

    6. The Roman Catholic church has made the distinct claim that salvation is NOT by grace through faith but depends on a man's observance of Roman Catholic rites and ordinances as well.

    7. The Roman Catholic church encourages occultism in its elevation of the 'saints' and suggested prayers to them. It is precisely this which opened the demonic door to the apparitions which are often mistaken as Mary, Jesus, or one or another of their collection of saints.

    8. The Roman Catholic church is at the forefront of the ecumenical movement today, the Pope having worshiped at the altars of idols himself in 'recognizing' the 'validity' of other faiths.

    9. In doctrines such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, of HER 'virgin birth', indulgences, purgatory, and the like, the Roman Catholic church inserted itself between each of its followers and God, proclaiming that it has the only true 'interpretation' of the Bible.

    10. The Mary of the Rosary is NOT the virgin Mary who gave birth to Christ but rather an idol to whom the Catholics are taught to pray, asking HER to be with them at the hour of their death and asking HER to make them "worthy of the promises of Christ." It is Mary of the Rosary who is their "sweetness," their "life" and their "hope."

    That's a start. Please keep in mind it is just a start.

    It is interesting to note that many ex-Catholics gravitate toward Mormonism and many ex-Mormons gravitate toward Catholicism. They are quite comfortable with the slight changes between the two of them and quite accustomed to a church authority telling them what to believe.

    [ August 25, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Obviously, you have never gone to Catholic school or gone to their Mass, or studied what the priest is doing at communion, or you would never make that statement.

    Actually, I did both. I went to Catholic school from grades 1 thru 8. I attended Mass with my friends regularly, and was an alter server in a Catholic Church for three years. I left the RCC in late high school. In college, I attended two Protestant universities, one Baptist and one RCA. Comparative religions was my college minor.

    I suppose you were presuming that I was biased based on my experience with catholicism. Now that I've proved you wrong, I suppose you're going to say I AM biased based on my experience with catholicism.
     
  20. Justified

    Justified
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    NO, you really don't know what they are! :rolleyes:

    They are the religious " WHORE ", or " HARLOT " which ever best fits. They take their people down the deceptive road to Hell. And take their money, while they are at it! :eek:

    ”Why stand on the broad road and get trampled?” Justified Version ;)

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, than to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)

    ”Conservatives- Theology dictates morality/Liberals- morality dictates Theology” Justified Version ;)

    [ August 28, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Justified ]
     

Share This Page

Loading...