Is Righteousness Imputed Apart From Works?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    This question comes up over and over. Another related question is, does imputed righteousness cover for present or future sins while one is actively engaged in such sin apart from the consideration of the conditions of repentance, faith, and obedience? Does God require anything out of us in order for Him to forgive our sins and to impute righteousness to our account? If not, it is certainly ‘all of God’ and we are right back to a necessitated system of fatalism and double predestination and that without exception.

    The second line of questioning involves the following thoughts. Is it possible for a believer, having been forgiven of past sins and having had the righteousness of Christ imputed to us on behalf of sins that are past, to act righteously? I hope we can clarify that there is a sense in which the righteousness of Christ is indeed imputed to us upon the fulfilling of certain conditions (faith and repentance) , and that in another sense righteousness is that which we indeed are responsible and commanded to act in accordance to that is not merely imputed to us by God, without which no man shall see God. The second sense of righteousness can only be accomplished in the life of a believer, having had all sins that are past washed away by the blood of the Lamb.
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    If righteousness isn't imputed apart from works then there must be mostly (over 75%?) babies and infants in Hell. <G>
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Why do you say that?
     
  4. Jedi Knight

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    Have you ever heard someone say "Act your age!"? Same applies to true believers position IN Christ. Act your position !
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: With one foot placed on that advice and the other foot planted in OSAS, it serves the same purpose as that of a policeman armed only with a whistle trying to get motorists to comply with the speed laws.

    Scripture goes far beyond such toothless warnings. Scripture informs us it is by the very formed intents and subsequent actions that we know we are standing on solid ground or are candidates for deception in the end.

    1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
    20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
    21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
    22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
    23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

    Sin separates one from God. That is a serious eternal matter indeed.
     
    #5 Heavenly Pilgrim, Feb 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2010
  6. Jedi Knight

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    If you die with out Jesus in your heart....you will go to Hell. Chatting with you here is like trying to convince a Jehovah's Witness........why bother. There is no WIT to it.
     
    #6 Jedi Knight, Feb 21, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2010
  7. DHK

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    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    --by faith and faith alone.
     
  8. DHK

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    Romans 4:2-3 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    --by faith and faith alone.
    Verse 2 indicates that no works were involved.

    Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    --If it is by works it is not by grace. We are saved by grace not by works. The verse is clear. It is by grace alone.

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    --No works; only faith.
    Only faith can be counted for righteousness--faith and faith alone.
    Works negates righteousness.
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    .


    HP: This remark of yours has to be one of the most absurd remarks I have ever encountered when stated, as you have, apart from careful clarification between the grounds and conditions of salvation and simple obedience to God's commands. Since you make absolutely no attempt to harmonize Scripture, neither do you show any ability to distinguish between what is stated of the grounds as opposed to the conditions of salvation or obedience to God's commands, I will simply stress the conditional side of salvation and obedience to God, that you simply avoid like the plague.

    If there are no works DHK, there is no faith apart from dead faith, and dead faith will save no one. Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” The answer is an emphatic ‘no.’ Scripture clearly refutes your position in that Abraham was justified by works and by no means negated righteous behavior.

    Scripture is replete with acts God clearly denotes as righteousness done on the part of men. One might start with Enoch, for we know no man can walk with God apart from righteousness. Read the account of Noah where God declares: Ge 7:1 ¶ And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.”

    Works negates righteouness? Not according to the Word of God……..unless you are specific in limiting the context of such a remark to the grounds of ones salvation which you seem oblivious to or unwilling to even attempt to comprehend.
     
  10. billwald

    billwald
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    >Why do you say that?

    Because well over 50% of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted before they are old enough to have a circulatory system. Add to that the intentional abortions and I suspect these days the total is close to 75% of all conceptions. If they are humans with souls then we have a BIG problem as the red letter writer in this thread notes.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Bill, babies are not even moral agents. The letters in red simply do not apply to the innocents.
     
  12. Jedi Knight

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    Ecclesiastes 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth
    who does what is right and never sins.
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    That is not God's testimony. Yes it is Scripture, but not all in Scripture is the truth as God sees it. (Remember Job's miserable comforters) God has seen, and I believe still sees, many righteous men and women who by His proferred help live blameless and righteous lives before God.
     
  14. Amy.G

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    Add to that:

    1Ki*8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;


    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.



    Did you read that HP? If you say you have no sin, you have deceived yourself and the truth is NOT in you.



    Are you going to deny scripture?
     
  15. DHK

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    The reason that any Biblical outlook remains absurd from your point of view is simply because your point of view on the Bible is indeed absurd. The Bible teaches that salvation is a gift of God, and that gift comes without conditions. God never attached any conditions to the gift of eternal life. That is precisely why it is called a gift.
    Stop here. There are not conditions of salvation. Again, see the absurdity of your position.
    Salvation is not a process that requires constant obedience. How old are you HP? From the day that your mother gave birth, is she still in the process of giving birth to you now? The birth of a baby is an event that happens once, not a process that goes on for an entire lifetime. The new birth likewise is an event that happens once in a lifetime, not a process throughout a lifetime of obedience. Either you are born again or you are not. Either you are saved or you are not. Which is it? That applies to all.
    There is nothing to avoid. You can't avoid something that doesn't exist. Salvation is unconditional. It is a free gift. It comes without conditions; free.
    I have explained these verses to you before. You ignore the explanation. You don't want to hear it again. Your mind is made up. You are against said principles and all precepts, pertaining to and therewith, concerning and having to do with, including and yet not excluding all the possible extremes contained herewith under the title henceforth called "education."
    So what's the use?

    Yes it is.
    And it needs to start with this one:

    Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
    Enoch walked with God and was not. He walked by faith. His faith, not his righteousness saved him.

    Hebrews 11:5-6 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
    In the same account it says:
    "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." Why? It was by faith.

    Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
    --It was by faith and faith alone.
    It seems that you are oblivious and/or unwilling to even attempt to comprehend the Word of God. Do me a favor. Take this passage and exegete it for me. Do it right here. I have already done it. Now it is your turn.

    Romans 4:1-5 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Verse by verse, what does the passage mean HP?
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Could you do me a favor and define what the word ‘condition’ means to you in relationship to a ‘condition’ of salvation? Thanks.
     
  17. Matt Black

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    ...or you might try to engage with the Scripture s/he quoted.
     
  18. Matt Black

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    And where does it use the word 'alone'?
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Matt, (picture one in a classroom waving their hand back and forth desiring to be chosen to answer the question. :smilewinkgrin:)

    I know you asked DHK, but I found the 'alone' word it where most likely he will never look.:thumbsup:

    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being ALONE. :saint:
     
  20. Amy.G

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    HP? Do you have a response to these scriptures?
     

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