Is Romans 6:3-4 Water or Holy Spirt Baptism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by On the side of truth, Jan 30, 2006.

  1. On the side of truth

    On the side of truth
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    Hello I posted this question in an another forum but I am really wondering if perhaps it should have been posted here. If I get the answers I need then I will close out the other one. My question is this.. Is there such a thing as Holy Spirit baptism at the moment of salvation where we are placed into the body of Christ? The reason why I ask is because at the church we attend we are hearing that because Ephesians 4 speaks of "one" :confused: baptism that water baptism is the only kind of baptism for us today. They do not believe it to be for salvation but that baptism(water)is what puts us into the Body of Christ which they define as the church. They do believe it to be symbolic of salvation but they believe it to be the door to the church as well. In refuting the baptism of the Holy Spirt he references Romans 6:3-4 and thatonly water baptism is relational to the death,burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. He believes that the ressurection of Christ defeats the Holy Spirit baptism theory because if you were resurrected out of the body of Christ then you would no longer be saved. So in his mind, it must be defined as water baptism. This is not what we grew up to understand but if any of you can (with Scriptures) share your view point on all of this we would appreciate it. If this doctrine is incorrect then we will probably look elsewhere for worship. Sorry this is long but we would appreciate some direction. :confused:
     
  2. Ransom

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    It should be fairly clear from the context that Paul is speaking of literal baptism in water, specifically its similarity to death, burial, and resurrection.
     
  3. Craigbythesea

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    I agree with Ransom that Romans 6 is speaking of water baptism, but that does not in any way rule out the possibility of a spirit baptism subsequent to water baptism, or a spirit baptism preceding water baptism, or both of them taking place at one time. The doctrine of the Baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit is usually taught primarily from the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament, and secondly from the four gospels. I would suggest that you study these five books of the New Testament very carefully and prayerfully and then read some books on the Holy Spirit written from several different points of view. The best defense of the position that the Baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit is normatively subsequent to and different from water baptism will be found in books published by the Gospel Publishing House, a ministry of the Assemblies of God. The best defense of the position that the Baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit normatively takes place in water baptism and is essentially inseparable from it can be found in the following book,

    Bruner, Dale Frederick. A Theology of the Holy Spirit, The Pentecostal Experience and the New Testament Witness. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans/Publisher, 1970. This 390 book includes a 30 page bibliography, an Index of Subjects, an Index of Persons and Authors, and a comprehensive Index of New Testament References.

    The subject is highly complex because we do not find any set pattern in the New Testament regarding salvation, water baptism, laying on of hands, and the baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit. Nor do we find any set pattern in the history of the church. Nor do we find any consensus of opinion on this matter at any point in Church history or in the theology of Baptist churches today.

    The subject is a fascinating one, and I encourage you to pursue it. Dale Bruner’s book is excellent and his argument is compelling, but no less compelling than the testimony to the contrary of Christians throughout the history of the church, and especially since the late 1890’s.


    Acts 2:1. When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
    2. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
    3. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
    4. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
    5. Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
    6. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
    7. They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
    8. "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
    9. "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
    10. Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
    11. Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
    12. And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
    13. But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."
    Peter's Sermon
    14. But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
    15. "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
    16. but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
    17. 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
    18. EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.
    19. 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
    20. 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
    21. 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' (NASB, 1995)

    [​IMG]
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Romans 8:1-9

    1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    According to this passage if we are not indwelt [Baptized] by the Holy Spirit we are not saved. Anyone who teaches otherwise is teaching heresy.
     
  5. Craigbythesea

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    OldReguar wrote,

    I find it most embarrassing as a Baptist to find such a comment by a Baptist on a Christian message board! Maybe there should be a rule against calling each other heretics. What an exceeding shameful thing! I can scarcely believe that a Baptist would write such a thing. Shame! Shame! Shame!

    [​IMG]
     
  6. OldRegular

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    I find it most embarrassing as a Baptist to find such a comment by a Baptist on a Christian message board! Maybe there should be a rule against calling each other heretics. What an exceeding shameful thing! I can scarcely believe that a Baptist would write such a thing. Shame! Shame! Shame!

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Shame! Shame! Shame! on You. I did not state that anyone on this Forum was a heretic. The OP states that someone was teaching the following:
    That is directly contrary to Scripture, which states in Romans 8:9 Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. For someone who has 200+ commentaries on the Book of Romans you should be familiar with this passage.
     
  7. Ransom

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    Craigbythesea said:

    I agree with Ransom that Romans 6 is speaking of water baptism, but that does not in any way rule out the possibility of a spirit baptism subsequent to water baptism, or a spirit baptism preceding water baptism, or both of them taking place at one time.

    True; however, we will have to look outside of Romans 6:3-4 to find it.
     
  8. Craigbythesea

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    OldRegular wrote,

    That is your OPPINION, and to a very substantial extent I agree with it, but that does NOT make those who have a different view heretics.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Watchman

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    He that was known for water baptism (John the Baptist) states early on that there are two distinct baptism's:
    "And I knew Him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost" (John 1:33)
    With water, with the Holy Ghost-they cannot be the same. Also note that Jesus, "...baptizeth not, but His disciples" (John 4).
    But yet we read:
    "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph. 4:5)
    Well, do we have a contradiction here? Not in the least. The only explanation here is that one is primarily important, the other is of secondary importance. Here I would certainly go with the one the Lord Jesus gives. Unless the baptism that the Lord Jesus gives comes FIRST, what you have is a wet unregenerate person.

    Old Regular, you got it exactly right, ESPECIALLY
    "According to this passage if we are not indwelt (Baptized) by the Holy Spirit we are not saved. Anyone who teaches otherwise is teaching heresy"
    I will gladly second and stand behind that statement!
     
  10. Ron Arndt

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    This is a very debatable question. To say that Romans 6:3-4 refers to water baptism puts some Baptists in a difficult position. For if water baptism is literally meant here, then one is not buried in Christ and able to come out a new man UNTIL one is water baptized. This is what the passages LITERALLY is saying. The same can be said for Galatians 3:27. Unless one is baptized, one has NOT put on Christ.

    For this reason many evangelical commentators, such as John MacArthur states that Paul is NOT referring to water baptism at all in Romans 6 or Galatians 3:27, but rather to the baptism by the Holy Spirit. I would tend to agree. For the bible clearly states, that it is the Holy Spirit who puts us into "the body of Christ" to begin with.See I Cor 12:13.

    What is even more revealing, is that the Holy Spirit gives us "spiritual life" so we are enabled to be a new man.See Colossians 2:11-12.Notice in Colossians 2:11-12, Paul says God's circumcism(baptism) is a work WITHOUT HANDS.Water baptism IS performed by the human hands of a minister. The baptism by the Holy Spirit is accomplished without the aid of human hands.In conclusion the baptism Paul is referring to in Romans 6:3-4 with Colossians 2:11-12 is a SPIRITUAL baptism from death to life.
     
  11. Craigbythesea

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    Rom. 6: shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
    2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
    3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
    5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
    7. for he who has died is freed from sin.

    Gal. 3:26. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    The wording of Romans 6:3-4 virtually for certain refers to water baptism. In the New Testament, the themes of being born again and water baptism are intertwined and pulling them totally apart results in some very unscriptural ideas and requires that some scriptures be radically reinterpreted, For example,

    1 Pet. 3:18. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
    19. in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
    20. who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
    21. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    22. who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

    In this passage we have the explicit statement, “baptism now saves you.” And although in the immediately preceding verse it says that Noah and his family were brought safely through the water, and baptism is said in verse 21 to correspond to that, many Baptist would argue that Peter is saying nothing of the sort. Everyone who is familiar with the literature on 1 Peter knows that, except among Baptists, 3:18 is almost universally understood to say that water baptism is the means through which God normatively confers salvation upon us by grace through faith, a concept that is repugnant to most Baptists (but certainly not all) and yet precious to most other Christians.

    But, or course, we find in some groups—where an academic pursuit of the truth is severely frowned upon—the teaching that we are saved by water baptism in and of itself. This is a most pernicious and heretical doctrine, and many Baptists confuse this doctrine with the teaching of the mainline churches even though they are in reality very different.

    As for Rom. 6:3-4, although it is speaking of water baptism, it is not saying, as is claimed it would be in the post that I am replying to, “one is not buried in Christ and able to come out a new man UNTIL one is water baptized.” The confusion here is largely the consequence of the difference in our two cultures. Modern Westerners place a very great amount of emphasis upon time and in our English verb system the time of the action is the most important factor in tense. In the ancient Greek verb system, the time of the action is very much less important, and they place a very great amount of emphasis upon the “aspect” of the action rather than the time of the action.

    From the perspective of a first century Christian, water baptism was the means through which God normatively conferred salvation upon them by grace through faith. The fact that the household of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized was not significant to them. The significant thing was that God had conferred the Holy Spirit upon Gentiles, and these Gentiles believers were baptized.

    When you get a few spare moments, step into your time machine and ask a first century Christian what came first—the chicken or the egg—and you will get a blank stare!

    (All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Craigbythesea

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    Some years ago Billy Graham was asked what he would do differently if he could do it all over again, and he replied that he would spend a whole lot more time praying and studying the Bible. My personal belief is that John MacArthur needs to do that. If I were to tell him that, he would probably reply, “Why should I? It certainly has not done you any good!” :D

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Craigbythesea

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    Col. 2:11. and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
    12. having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

    The circumcision made without hands is most certainly not water baptism; it is the death of Christ into which we were baptized. And, of course, the death of Christ was not made with hands. The expression “made without hands” is a translation of the Greek word, αχειροποίητος, and the Greek word χειροποίητος (made with hands) was used in the Septuagint speaking of idols (Lev. 26:1; Isa. 11:9).

    (All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)


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  14. Brother James

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    I find it most embarrassing as a Baptist to find such a comment by a Baptist on a Christian message board! Maybe there should be a rule against calling each other heretics. What an exceeding shameful thing! I can scarcely believe that a Baptist would write such a thing. Shame! Shame! Shame!

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]'ol Craig still spouting off his baptismal regeneration.
     
  15. Ransom

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    Ron Arndt notes that if Rom. 6 and Gal. 3 are referring to baptism in water, then this is the implication:

    Unless one is baptized, one has NOT put on Christ.

    If someone who claims to have put on Christ, but refuses to obey one of Christ's first commands to his disciples, that ought to give one pause, no?
     
  16. Ron Arndt

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    Ransom

    I am only going by what Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 say baptism actually DOES. If we take God's word at face value, which we all should, then whatever this baptism is, we are buried and risen with Christ, and put on Christ. This is what the verses SAY.

    If one holds to these verses being water baptism, then one is not placed into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, unless one is thus water baptized. And one is said not to "put on" Christ UNTIL one is water baptized. That is, IF we understand baptism in these verses to mean WATER baptism.

    I choose to believe we are baptized into Christ by the BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.I Cor 12:13 and not by physical water. The problem is that Romans 6:3-4 and Gal.3:27 does NOT tell us directly what type of baptism Paul actually meant. The baptism by the Holy Spirit or physical,water baptism performed at the hands of a minister.
     
  17. HankD

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    Somethings are always in the forefront of our minds.

    I will always remember this statement by my theology 101 professor:

    "There is not one drop of water in Romans 6".

    HankD
     
  18. Craigbythesea

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    Brother James wrote,

    I find it to be a very sad thing indeed that a man who calls himself “Brother James” would resort to false and malicious ad hominem attacks on a Christian, and post these attacks on a Christian message board. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Craigbythesea

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    Ransom

    I am only going by what Romans 6:3-4 and Gal 3:27 say baptism actually DOES. If we take God's word at face value, which we all should, then whatever this baptism is, we are buried and risen with Christ, and put on Christ. This is what the verses SAY.

    If one holds to these verses being water baptism, then one is not placed into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, unless one is thus water baptized. And one is said not to "put on" Christ UNTIL one is water baptized. That is, IF we understand baptism in these verses to mean WATER baptism.

    I choose to believe we are baptized into Christ by the BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.I Cor 12:13 and not by physical water. The problem is that Romans 6:3-4 and Gal.3:27 does NOT tell us directly what type of baptism Paul actually meant. The baptism by the Holy Spirit or physical,water baptism performed at the hands of a minister.
    [/QUOTE]

    You are only going by what Romans 6:3-4 and Gal. 3:27 say baptism does with the mindset of a 21st century Westerner. Paul, however, was a first century Jew who had been converted to the Christian faith and who had been born and raised in a Helenistic culture, and he was writing to other first century Christians living in a Helenistic culture. As I have already written on the previous page, there is absolutely nothing in these verses, when read in that context, that say that one cannot believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, be justified, and receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism even though these passages have water baptism in view.

    And, of course the language of Romans 6:3-4,

    3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    harmonizes perfectly with water baptism by immersion, but does not harmonize at all with being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

    And Gal. 3:27, even in our western translations,

    27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    does not say that all of the Galatians to whom Paul was writing were clothed with Christ at the time that they were baptized, it simply says that all of the Galatians to whom he was writing, those who had been baptized in Christ, have clothed themselves with Christ.

    There is absolutely no problem with taking both of these passages as speaking of water baptism when the first century concept of Christian baptism is understood in the framework of first century Helenistic culture rather than water baptism in a 21st century Baptist church in the Western world. Every verse in the Bible must be read in the context in which it appears, and that context does not just include the verses which precede and follow it—it also includes the language, time, and culture in which it was written. And when this context is ignored, the interpreter is almost for certain going to come to a wrong interpretation. Bible study does not just include carefully reading an English translation of the Bible—it also includes studying the languages, time, and culture in which the Bible was written. That is why we have Bible handbooks, Bible dictionaries, Greek and Hebrew lexicons and grammars, Bible commentaries, maps of the Bible lands, etc.

    (All Scriptures NASB, 1995)

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Ron Arndt

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    Craigbythesea

    Please show me in Romans 6:3-4 or Gal 3:27 where WATER is mentioned? You state I am looking at these verses from a western mindset? Since when does not the bible SPEAK FOR ITSELF? In Romans 6:3-4 it states whoever is baptized is placed into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ! One does not to be in a western mindset to understand what scripture is PLAINLY saying in those verses. This is what this baptism does for the believer. Do we as Christians need to attend Hellenistic studies to understand what is plainly written there?

    Also please explain to me just how water can place us into the death of Christ anyway? And even more so, how one's old self can be buried and our new self can be made alive, to walk in the newness of life by water? How does the operation of water over our bodies do that Craigbythesea?

    I certainly can see how the the Holy Spirit does these things? For it is he that places us into the body OF CHRIST to begin with.I Cor 12:13. It is the Holy Spirit who circumcises our hearts with a baptism made WITHOUT HANDS.Col.2:11-13. It is the Holy Spirit that REGENERATES us into a NEW MAN when we believe. Titus 3:5. All this is done by the Holy Spirit.

    Now I ask you once again, since you believe water baptism is spoken of in Rom 6:3-4 and Gal:27, please show me how water places us into the death of Christ, and places us into Christ and we become a new man?
     

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