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Is Romans 9-11 for individual election or corporate?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Daniel David, Feb 14, 2003.

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  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    This is not a thread on Calvinism per se.

    This is an interpretive issue on whether or not this passage addresses individual election or national (or corporate) election.

    This will not turn into a debate on Calvinism. That is not the point and this thread will not be hijacked.

    What do you believe and why?

    I will go ahead and reveal my position. I believe it is national (or corporate) election. I do believe in individual election (just not from this text).
     
    #1 Daniel David, Feb 14, 2003
  2. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    I believe it is corporate election. Also, I do not believe in individual election.
     
    #2 Terry_Herrington, Feb 15, 2003
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I believe Jacob and Esau were real men and that God chose real men. Individuals. Me.

    He also chose the nation of Israel.

    Thank you, Jesus, for without His choice, I would continue on my way to hell unabated!
     
    #3 Dr. Bob, Feb 15, 2003
  4. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker <img src=/tentmaker.gif>
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    I believe,national--the national election of Israel. The only nation to be so elected. In the age of grace, it is individual.Thus, the contrast between Israel (nation) and Gentiles (not a singular nation).
     
    #4 Tentmaker, Feb 15, 2003
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Individual, as seen from the use of individual's name. It does not preclude corporate election. Both are referenced. The main point is that God can do what he wants to do with both nations and people.
     
    #5 Pastor Larry, Feb 15, 2003
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Clearly that is the point. That is the reason for the rhetorical question regarding the potter and the clay.

    Also, I believe that this passage is there to demonstrate why ethnic Israel does not believe this great gospel.
     
    #6 Daniel David, Feb 15, 2003
  7. rufus

    rufus New Member

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    IMHO, in order to have NATIONAL election you must have INDIVIDUAL election.

    rufus [​IMG]
     
    #7 rufus, Feb 15, 2003
  8. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    As to my view on the original question--both corporate and individual intertwined. But I also think corporate election is only accomplished through individual election. God can elect a nation, but then He must fill up that nation with individuals....

    [ February 15, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]
     
    #8 russell55, Feb 15, 2003
  9. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Paul goes to great lengths at the beginning of Romans 9 to refute the idea that "Israel" is the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    Anyone who gets past that and still maintains that chs. 9-11 are about the corporate election of the nation of Israel, misses the point.
     
    #9 Ransom, Feb 19, 2003
  10. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    The corporate view also fails to offer any reasonable explanation for why Paul introduces Pharaoh to the discussion.
     
    #10 Siegfried, Feb 19, 2003
  11. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    My friends, individual election is indeed present in chapter 9. I was specifically talking about the whole of 9-11, not just chapter 9.

    At the beginning of 10 and 11, Paul addresses his brothers according to the flesh.
     
    #11 Daniel David, Feb 19, 2003
  12. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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    #12 C.S. Murphy, Feb 20, 2003
  13. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker <img src=/tentmaker.gif>
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    "And so all Israel will be saved..." Romans 11:26. Can't get much plainer than this!
     
    #13 Tentmaker, Feb 24, 2003
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