Is salvation a means or an end?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Is salvation what Calvary was all about and that's it- In other words, is the reason Christ died just because we were that valuable and he died just to save us.

    Or is salvation a means to an end- that God be glorified forever?

    Is salvation a means or an end?

    Is it mainly about US or about Christ and his glory?
     
    #1 Luke2427, Dec 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2010
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,835
    Likes Received:
    115
    Oh, my, well .....

    .... it's definitely not an end. At least not in my opinion. If salvation were an end, then when we were saved, we would immediately die and go to heaven and float around for eternity on cloud playing a crummy harp. But - we don't. That isn't it.

    Salvation is NOT about us. It involves us. We are graced with the gift of salvation, but salvation is ultimately not about the recipient of the gift, but the Giver.

    I always tell the children that I teach and the adult women that I teach that there has got to be something about heaven and our ultimate relationship with God that He hasn't fully revealed to us or else He has and we are too self-centered to focus on anything beyond ourselves.

    There's no way that God made us - knowing full well that we would sin and betray Him (daily) - and send His Son to die a brutal death, to BECOME sin for us, and to have the Father turn away from Him while He was on the cross - just because He made us and loves His creation.

    He didn't have to create us in His image, you know. He could have made us like the butterbeans, the giraffes, and the mountians. Wonderful - but not in His image. But He DID make us as humans in His image. Humans that would defile themselves so terribly.

    Why?

    Was He lonely? No. Was God bored? No. Did He need a creative outlet? No. We we so outstanding and special? NO!

    Revelations 4:11 says that God is to receive glory and honor and power and it was by His pleasure that all things were created. Psalms 102:18 says that the people that are created shall praise Him. Isaiah 43:7 says that God created those called by His Name for His glory. Psalm 34:1 says that we are to exalt the Name of God at all times. 1 Corinthians 10:31 says that we are to do everything that we do for the glory of God.

    God is to receive glory and that is why we were created. Salvation is - while I don't know if I would use the word "means", but I know what you are saying - salvation is more like the beginning.

    Let me tell you a story.

    I have in my possession the Bible from a elderly woman who is now with the Lord. I am so glad to have it. She was a Bible teacher extraordinaire. It is FULL of notes. I haven't even begun to go through them all.

    But here is an outline that she has in the front cover. I'm sure it is the outline from a sermon that she heard.

    1. Salvation
    2. Service
    3. Santification
    4. Our death
    5. Judgment
    6. Eternal life with Christ (I added this one.)
    In ALL of these things, God is glorified.

    I just can't imagine salvation being the pinnacle of it all. To me, the purpose of salvation is the more important thing. And that would be to bring God glory.
     
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Excellent, excellent work. Thanks so much for this post.
     
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    God doesn't need to do anything to glorify Himself. He is IAM.

    But this is why God did what He did.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



    Does it glorify God? Yes.

    But God sent His Son to die on a cross because He loved the world, not because of a need or desire to glorify Himself.
     
  5. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent, Thanks so much for the post.

    Thanks for keeping it simple for a man like me. :)
     
  6. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well said. I love my wife. Do I find her worthy of this love? Of course. Would she say she is worthy of my love? Probably not (although I would secretly hope so :laugh:)
     
  7. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scarlett and Amy are both right.

    :)
     
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Have you not noticed how many times I have all-capped DISPLAY?

    He NEEDS to have the fall if he is to DISPLAY his glory to the fullest.

    If not, please explain to me how he DISLAY grace and MERCY without SIN?

    Please explain to me how there is a Calvary without sin.
     
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Do you think that God loves BECAUSE we are WORTHY to be loved Webdog?

    If God SAYS we are worthy then we are worthy- period.

    He CANNOT say it and it not be actually so.

    He's not like you and your wife.

    If you are not worthy of love your wife can SAY that you are and be wrong.

    If your wife is worthy of your love, you can say she ISN'T and be wrong.

    But God cannot say you are worthy and you not actually be worthy-period.

    That would be a lie. God cannot lie.
     
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    But these things are NOT simple.

    They are complex until you get them.

    In your field there are equations that you CANNOT keep simple nor should you try. You should be honest and say- Now this is going to be difficult- it is complex- I will explain it to the best of my ability but you are going to struggle to get it at first.

    This desire to keep everything in theology simple is not good and to pretend that it all should be is less than honest.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I already answered that, Luke. The answer then and now is NO.
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Then what is your point here?

    What is the point you are trying to make with the above remark?
     
  13. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Worth is in the eye of the beholder. Why did you find your wife worthy to marry...and not another woman? Does she have any worth to you?

    You might fined a 65 Chevelle more worthy than I do and might pay a lot more for it. Say I don't care for classic cars much....does it have worth to you or to me?
     
    #13 webdog, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2010
  14. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Worth is defined as also costly, expensive.

    1 Corinthians 6:20 for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.
    Barnes...
    For ye are bought - Ye Christians are purchaseD; and by right of purchase should therefore be employed as he directs. This doctrine is often taught in the New Testament, and the argument is often urged that, therefore, Christians should be devoted to God; see 1 Corinthians 7:23; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 Peter 2:9; 2 Peter 2:1; Revelation 5:9; see the note at Acts 20:28.
    With a price - τίμῇ timē. A price is that which is paid for an article, and which, in the view of the seller, is a fair compensation, or a valuable consideration why he should part with it; that is the price paid is as valuable to him as the thing itself would be. It may not be the same thing either in quality or quantity, but it is that which to him is a sufficient consideration why he should part with his property. When an article is bought for a valuable consideration, it becomes wholly the property of the purchaser. He may keep it, direct it, dispose of it. Nothing else is to be allowed to control it without his consent - The language here is figurative. It does not mean that there was strictly a commercial transaction in the redemption of the church, a literal "quid pro quo," for the thing spoken of pertains to moral government, and not to commerce. It means:
    (1) That Christians have been redeemed, or recovered to God;
    (2) that this has been done by a "valuable consideration," or that which, in his view, was a full equivalent for the sufferings that they would have endured if they had suffered the penalty of the law;
     
    #14 webdog, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2010
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Do you intend to apply that to God?

    Does the eye of the divine Beholder look at you and see something WORTHY of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

    And worth is concrete when it comes to God- it is not a matter of perspective- if God sees something as worthy then that is what it is- it does not matter if that something sees itself as unworthy- that something is wrong.

    God's perspective is right. If you say God SAW you as WORTHY of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ then you are saying that you were INDEED worthy of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ because God cannot be wrong about his estimation of worth.
     
    #15 Luke2427, Dec 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2010
  16. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why can't you answer the questions?
     
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Go back, I edited it- I did answer your questions- what WE see as having worth is not applicable to God and his perspective because his perspective is concrete and always accurate and true.

    If God sees something as worthy- it IS.

    If I see something as worthy- it may not be.

    Furthermore, we are talking about something specific- not jast worthy but exactly how much it is worthy and what exactly it is worthy of.

    We are talking about the sacrifice of Christ and you a re saying that WE are WORTHY of such a sacrifice in God's eyes.

    If that chevelle is worth a thousand dollars to me then it IS worth that to me.

    The question is this: Are YOU worth the hell that God put Christ through in God's own estimation?

    No. You are not. But he did it "That in the ages to come HE MIGHT SHOW the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2
     
  18. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I didn't see anything about your wife or my car example in the post you edited...that was the question I asked. Is she worthy to you? Who is the car worthy to?

    I also posted anther post (#14) showing how God views us in regards to paying a hefty price, and here's yet one more perspective...

    Luke 15 8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Messages:
    7,598
    Likes Received:
    8
    Yes webdog, she was worthy to me and that is why I chose her.

    So the question you refuse to answer is- DID GOD SEE YOU AS WORTHY OF THE HELL HE PUT HIS SON THROUGH- the same way you and I saw our wives as worthy?

    I'll address the passage when you answer this question.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wait...she is worthy to you? Why?

    Did you read post 14? Christ paid a HUGE price to ransom sinners. He gave His life, the hightest price ever paid for anything or anyone! I know we would both give our lives for our wives or pay whatever we had to free them from destruction! If that's not worth, what is?
     

Share This Page

Loading...