IS SIN A CAUSE OF REPROBATION?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 3, 2005.

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IS SIN A CAUSE OF REPROBATION?

  1. YES

    100.0%
  2. NO

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Mr. John Bunyan, a well known Calvinist of the past, stated in blunt terms,

    "SIN IS NO CAUSE OF REPROBATION."

    Do you agree with this statement? I sin a cause of reprobation or is it not?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. johnp.

    johnp.
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    "SIN IS NO CAUSE OF REPROBATION."

    It looks even better bold. Why have you started another thread when I'm waiting for a reply on the previous one Mark?

    john.
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Well, as of 9:46 pm CST the count is four to one in favor of the blasphemeous slander that God does not damn people for their sin.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  4. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    1. This is a poll, not another discussion.

    2. You didn't say anything worthy of a response.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
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    As someone who is not a calvinist, it is not sin that damns people...it's what they do (or don't do) with God's Son that damns.
     
  6. whatever

    whatever
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    You have such a way with words.

    What's your definition of reprobation? What's Bunyan's definition of reprobation? Are they the same?
     
  7. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Whatever,

    Bunyan taught (that which any consistent Calvinist should teach, though I know many do not) that God unconditionally selected certain men to be reprobate and that on no basis of any forseen evil in them, but merely on the basis of His choice. Go read the other thread on reprobation to see the quotes from his tract on the subject.

    From such a philosophy one would have to deduce that God damns people, not for any evil they have done, but just because He wanted to. That may be the god of Calvinism, but it is neither the God of mercy or of justice which I serve

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  8. whatever

    whatever
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    Hi Mark,

    Please carefully read this quote from chapter 6 of Bunyan's tract (as found at this link):
    Bunyan addresses and denies the very idea that you are suggesting, that
    Bunyan may be wrong but you at least ought to object to what he actually says, and not charge him with defending what he explicitly denies.
     
  9. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Whatever,

    So what you are saying is that I ought to accept his convoluted and contradictory justifications, which were designed and calculated to rescue him from the clear implications of his statements. Uh, not on your life! The man wrote,

    "Reprobation is before the person cometh into the world or hath done good or evil; this is evident by that of Paul to the Romans: 'For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand, it was said unto Rebecca, The eleder shall serve the younger.' Here you find twain in their mother's womb, and both receiving their destiny, not only before they had done good or evil, but before they were in a capacity to do it, they being yet unborn - their destiny, I say, the one unto, the other not unto, the blessing of eternal life; the one chosen, the other refused; the one elect, the other reprobate"

    He may turn around and try to justify these blasphemeous statements, but taken at face value they charge God with having chosen to damn some people for having done absolutely nothing.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Matthew 18
    21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
    22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


    Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

    Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

    So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.
    Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

    But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.
    Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

    Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.
    The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.
    Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

    Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
    .
    Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

    Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

    Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Ok - that was all just the obvious.

    Now for the question for this thread. What did Christ point to as it related to the suffering??

    Deeds?

    What about 2Cor 5:8-11 -- what does IT point to ?? "Deeds"??

    What about that business of fruit in Matt 7?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. whatever

    whatever
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    No, what I am saying is that if you are going to disagree with a dead man then you ought to disagree with what he says, and not what he denies. He plainly stated that he was not saying what you are arguing against. He made it clear what he meant by 'reprobation', and to use a different definition and then argue that what he said about reprobation was wrong is dishonest at best.
    He is not talking about God damning people. He made that quite clear, and it should not be hard to grasp. Rather than bearing false witness against him maybe you could address all that he actually said. That would certainly be more fruitful.
     
  13. 2BHizown

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    Simply put regarding the OP:
    NO sin is not the cause of reprobation, It is the effect, the result.
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Sin is not the cause of reprobation. Rejection is
    In The Light Of Christ;
    Mike
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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