is The Bible THE Chosen Means God Regenerates His Elect?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.""

    Is the Bible THE means the Holy Spirit yses to regenerate sinners?

    If yes, it is the Gospel being the very power of God unto salavtion...

    Would a person have to be regenerated before hearing it, in order to be able to understand and believe it?
    For if a carnal peron cannot receive the things of the Bible, as they are spritual discerned by spritual people...

    Wouldn't this tend to show that HOWEVER he does it, one needs to be quickened/regenerated by Holy Spirit BEFORE actual saving faith is done?
     
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Words of Jesus

    Faith comes from the words of Jesus and the words about Jesus. His words are Spirit and life and it puts before us two paths to believe(trust) in Jesus and be saved or continue in unbelief and be condemned.

    Jesus words do not place one path before us so choose Jesus and live, because God has also included with the Elect those who hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

    As the scripture tell us trust in the Lord and He will make our path straight or direct our path.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK
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    I have heard the testimonies of many who have said that by reading the Bible only--without any outside influence, they found Christ as their Savior. Thus the carnal mind is able to understand, with some degree, the Scriptures, and is thus able to be saved. The part the Holy Spirit plays is to convict of sin.
    Contrary to Calvinistic belief, regeneration and salvation take place at the same time. There is no Biblical evidence that says they don't.
     
  4. Amy.G

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    How about we change the name of Baptist Board to Calvinist Board? I mean that's all we ever talk about isn't it?
     
  5. StefanM

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    I tend to agree, even though I am more Calvinistic in my understanding of soteriology. I see a distinction between the Spirit's enabling one to believe and regeneration.
     
  6. JesusFan

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    I agree that from the Bible perspective, it would appear that both happen at the same time in life of Christian...

    IF however there is no cause and effect going on here,

    why have a Calvanist/ Free Will distinction on steps of salavation?
     
  7. jbh28

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    It was pre-ordained that we would talk about it this much. Actually, I agree with you. I'm about tired of it myself. I know I'm right....:D lol


    I agree.

    As to the OP....yes
     
  8. StefanM

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    Because there is a distinction on how to "get there." While I do not believe that regeneration necessarily precedes faith, divine enablement/calling does precede faith. IMO, divine enablement/calling leads to faith/regeneration.
     
  9. Amy.G

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    Have you ever noticed that the uplifting threads get very few posts? Sad commentary on ourselves.
     
  10. jbh28

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    True, and I'm the blame many times. Seems we would rather fight than edify.
     
  11. Amy.G

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    Me too. I'm trying to change that though. :saint:<---someday.
     
  12. Van

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    Lots of stuff to comment on in this thread, yet another excellent one from Jesusfan.

    Is the Bible (or the Bible's message, the Gospel of Christ) the chosen means God uses to regenerate the elect? No. First regenerate means again originate, so when we are conceived in Adam, we are spiritually dead, separated from God. When God puts us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive (regenerated/born again) together with Christ. No one is regenerated or made alive outside of Christ. So the chosen means, and BTW what an apt characterization, is for God to spiritually place us in Christ, thus we are individually chosen and placed in the Chosen One.

    Faith comes from hearing and embracing God's revelation. So the revealing grace, including the Gospel and all the mechanisms used to cultivate us, plant us and water us, is a gift from God, but it does not "enable" as in modify our attributes supernaturally so we can receive it. That is fiction with no scriptural support. But no one is saved by trusting in Christ, because we do not save ourselves, it is God who credits our faith, as worthless as it may well be on and by itself, as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ. God does it all, except for our autonomous choice to trust and rely on Jesus.

    Of course the gospel is the power of God to salvation, Romans 1:16 says (NASB) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Note it does not cause belief, but it does provide the revelation enabling someone to chose to embrace it with all their heart, or something less, or even reject it. See Matthew 13:1-26

    Would a person have to be "regenerated" or supernaturally altered to enable the person to receive the gospel? No, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 says "men of the flesh" can receive the milk of the gospel, and that is how Paul addressed the "babes in Christ" who had not learned enough with the aid of their indwelt Spirit to be able to handle spiritual meat.
    The problem with 1 Corinthians 2:14 is people do not look at the context including chapter 3. It says "spiritual things" and does not say either "all spiritual things" or "some spiritual things." But from the context, Paul meant "some" spiritual things, the things discerned with the aid of the indwelt Spirit, because without the Spirit they are unable to understand them. But the milk of the gospel, Chapter three, can be understood by men of the flesh.

    Doesn't this show a person has to be "quickened" which is just an old fashioned word for being made alive. Calvinists us quicken as if it happens before a person receives the gospel fully, but quicken simply says to be made alive together with Christ.

    If you take a careful look at John 1:10-12 you will see the sequence laid out with perfect clarity:

    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

    13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


    First we must receive Him. But who decides whether or not we did in deed receive Him. Romans 4:5 answers that question, God decides whether we did or not to His satisfaction and then credits our dirty rag faith as righteousness. So trusting in Christ did not "put us in Christ" or earn a place in Christ. God has mercy on whom He has mercy and it does not depend on the person who wills to be saved. Romans 9.

    What did God do? He gave them the "right" to become children of God. Note this does not say they became children of God. In context, our physical adoption as sons is in view and therefore we are given the right to be physically adopted as sons at the second coming. And how was this "right" given? God put us spiritually in Christ and sealed us with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for our inheritance of eternal life as children of God. So the sequence is we believe in His name, God credits it or not, as righteousness, then He places us spiritually in Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation. And how were these new creations born? Not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. The gospel of Christ.
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    more falsehood;
    all wrong...
     
  14. MB

    MB
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    What intellect! The Bible is wrong!!!
    I believe those who make such absurd statement should have to prove them. So Iconoclast prove the Bible is wrong.
    MB
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    MB,
    It is you who said the bible is wrong'
    Vans ideas are all wrong. You cannot read the post correctly.You might be a follower of Van...one of the "folks" he is trying to reach.

    7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    I guess you and Van think Paul was wrong here.
     
    #15 Iconoclast, Mar 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2011
  16. DHK

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    First, I have heard many testify that they have come to Christ through reading the Bible alone, without any other person influencing. If the carnal mind cannot understand the Scriptures, and is totally against God, how did these people get saved? Are they all liars, or perhaps is your understanding of Scripture wrong?

    Secondly, is the Bible wrong or are you wrong? Which one?
    Here is what the Bible says:

    For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:3-4)

    Three times Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, calls the believers at Corinth "carnal." They were carnal Christians. About this there is no doubt. Carnal Christians were in the Corinthian Church according to word of the Lord.
    Icono, either God is lying or your theology is wrong. Which one is it?
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    [/QUOTE]

    DHK,

    It is your misunderstanding of 1 cor 3 that is wrong. Your belief in the carnal mind,and carnal christian heresy is mixing you up here.

    God never lies,and my theology is just fine as it knows that the carnal are the unsaved. Your false ideas posted in the closed carnal christian thread[which others offered you correction on,which you do not accept]....will not allow you to correctly understand it.
    With your false understanding you will never come to truth on this.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
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    DHK,

    It is your misunderstanding of 1 cor 3 that is wrong. Your belief in the carnal mind,and carnal christian heresy is mixing you up here.



    God never lies,and my theology is just fine as it knows that the carnal are the unsaved. Your false ideas posted in the closed carnal christian thread[which others offered you correction on,which you do not accept]....will not allow you to correctly understand it.[/QUOTE]
    My theology is not mixed up. Paul distinctly calls these Christians at Corinth carnal. They are carnal Christians. Now if you cannot reconcile other Scripture like Romans 8 and perhaps James 4:4 to what Paul is saying then your theology is dead wrong. Paul isn't wrong. He is not lying. Why would you suggest otherwise?
     
  19. Winman

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    As Van said, revelation enables belief.

    Tom- Hey guys, they're giving away free turkeys at the grocery store.

    Dick- Really?

    Harry- No way, you're pulling our chain so we drive down and make fools of ourselves.

    Tom- Seriously guys, they're giving away free turkeys at the grocery store, you should run down and get one before they run out.

    Dick- I'm going right now!

    Harry- Not me, I'm not falling for your trick.

    TEN MINUTES LATER...

    Dick- Hey look guys, I got a twenty pound turkey for free, Tom was telling the truth!

    Harry- He WAS telling the truth, I'm going down right now!

    Dick- It's too late, I got the last one.

    Tom's revelation enabled both Dick and Harry to believe. You cannot possibly believe what you have not heard. But there was no magic here, Dick believed because he judged Tom honest, Harry did not believe because he judged Tom to be telling a lie to deceive him.

    Dick believed and received the free gift, Harry did not believe and lost out.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
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    And it did not matter about the seriousness, or spirituality, or sincerity, etc. of either Dick or Harry. The only thing either one of them needed was faith that Tom was telling the truth. Where did the faith come from?
     

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