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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Feb 18, 2014.
Would that view agree with those held by Jesus and Paul?
Yes. See Romans 5.
Federal Headship is a false doctrine that wasn't even known until the 17th century. Many Calvinists themselves reject it.
As A. H. Strong pointed out, Federal Headship holds men responsible for violating a covenant which they had no part in establishing. It makes men sinners who have committed no sin (Rom 9:11), and makes God the author of sin.
The scriptures are quite clear that God is not unjust and does not punish one person for another person's sin.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
If you believe we were all in the loins of Adam, then you must believe we are guilty of ALL of Adam's sin, plus ALL the sin of ALL of our grandfathers.
But not only would we be guilty of all evil our grandparents committed, but we would also be credited with their good, as Levi was credited with paying tithes to Melchisedek in Abraham.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
If you believe in Federal Headship, then you must also believe you inherit the GOOD your grandparents did, as Levi was credited with paying tithes to Melchisedek because he was in Abraham's loins.
Therefore, if any one of your grandfathers were a believer in Christ, you would receive credit for that and be imputed righteous.
So, this theory is absolutely ridiculous. Men are accountable for their own actions, God does not hold any man accountable for sin (or good) performed by another man.
If God does not credit the good that Christ did to our account, there simply is no salvation from sin.
God only imputes you righteous if YOU personally believe on Jesus. Likewise, God only imputes sin to those who personally sin as Adam did.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
You cannot violate Paul's form of argument in Romans 5, you must treat each half of each verse equally.
Therefore, if Adam's sin is UNCONDITIONALLY imputed to all men in verse 18, EVEN SO must the free gift of life be imputed UNCONDITIONALLY to all men. This would result in universalism which we all know is not true.
Men violate Paul's form of argument by imputing Adam's sin unconditionally, and then conditionally imputing righteousness to those that believe on Jesus. This is gross error.
What Paul is teaching is that both Adam and Jesus were "legal precedents" for those who follow in their steps. Those who sin like Adam are judged "sinners" and sentenced to death as Adam was, those who believe as Jesus trusted his Father are imputed "righteous".
This is what Romans 5 is REALLY teaching. You are a smart guy, I think you could grasp this.
just as God credited the sin of Adam unto us as sinners, in same fashion he credits the merits of Chrsit towards those of us saved by him in the beloved!
ALL physical who have been born imputed sin of Adam, ALL saved in Christ get His merits, what can be simplier than that truth?
I've gotta disagree, because Romans 5 teaches no such thing. Winman is correct. Romans 1 tells us clearly that there was an exchange. We become fools, not born fools. How can one acknowledge God no longer, if he never did in the first place?
Remember, Paul was making his case that we are without excuse. Why would he turn around 4 chapters later and give us an excuse?
Romans 5 tells us that because of Adam, everyone is going to die physically. "In Adam" all will die. The only part coming from Adam is our physical body. See 1Cor 15:20-23
The term "in Adam" is found only once in scripture, and that is 1 Cor 15:22;
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Does this verse say that because of Adam all are dead (past tense)? NO. It says in Adam all "die" (future tense).
This verse is speaking of physical death only, but if it were speaking of spiritual death it would refute Original Sin, because it shows persons will "die" future tense. You must be alive to die, so this would refute Original Sin.
In Romans 7 Paul says that he was spiritually alive until he learned the law. Once the commandment came, sin revived and he "died". Once again, you have to be alive to die, so this utterly refutes Original Sin.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Romans 7 completely refutes Original Sin. Paul is clearly describing when he learned the law in verse 7. He would not have known lust except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Paul clearly says he was "alive" until the commandment came, When he learned the law he was convicted as a sinner and died. Sin used the law to kill or slay Paul.
Any honest reader can easily see this passage destroys Original Sin.
What he said
You are dead on. We get our physical bodies from our parents, and our physical body is cursed. All will physically die because of Adam.
But our spirit is given by God.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
God does not give anybody an evil spirit. We are all born upright, but every man goes out in sin and corrupts himself. We have "become filthy" which shows a process from good to bad.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
we are born as sinners, we have NO spiritual life, as dead in likeness of Adam. ONLY those saved by jesus, in His likeness, have spiritual/eternal life!