is the Gospel Also the Dog/Atonement views?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Do we equate that the Gospel message must be including the Dog for it to be right, or that we must have a certain view on the atonement?

    the Bible describes the Gospel to us as jesus died for loss sinners as their substitute, he rose for their justification, and ONLY hope to get saved is freceiving Him thru faith...

    Did the Apostles state " we hold to the unlimited view/but include DoG"

    Or was that to be adressed AFTER saved by the Cross?
     
  2. The Archangel

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    No. Limited Atonement is not the Gospel.

    While some Arminians and some Calvinists are far outside the bounds of orthodoxy, many Arminians and many Calvinists are well within the bounds of orthodoxy in their understanding of the Gospel. An orthodox gospel is one that preaches and affirms salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone while affirming a penal-substitutionary atonement.

    Many Calvinists and many Arminians preach the true Gospel without reference to whether the atonement is limited or unlimited.

    The Archangel


    ETA: I have no reason for the increased font size. I can't make it what it was originally.... Bummer.
     
    #2 The Archangel, Jun 18, 2014
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  3. Hermeneut7

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    I've searched the Internet to try and determine what you mean by a "dog/atonement". I find nothing. I know Particular Redemption, Definite Atonement and Limited Atonement... but "DoG"?
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    TULIP, as in the doctrines of grace that those such as the reformers espoused were how the bible teaches us the salvation plan of God!
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    I agree totallly here with you on this, just was asking this in the shadow that some here seemed to hold that the Gospel/calvinism one and the same!
     
  6. Winman

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    A promise must have a foundation behind it.

    Paul shows this in 1 Corinthians 15;

    1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    Paul shows here that if Jesus did not rise from the dead in reality, then preaching the gospel will not save anybody. And if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then your faith will not save you, your faith is vain and you will die in your sins.

    Likewise, if Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith will not save you. Your faith is vain and you will die in your sins.

    If Limited Atonement is true, then no man can know Jesus died for him. And if Jesus did not die for you, all the faith and confidence in the world will not save you.

    You could believe a gun is unloaded and put it to your head and pull the trigger, if it is loaded, it will blow your head off. Your confidence and faith does not determine what is reality.

    In fact, that is how the great guitar player Terry Kath for the band Chicago died, he picked up a gun he thought was unloaded and put it to his head and pulled the trigger. His faith was vain.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Kath

    The point is, if Jesus did not die for you, your faith will not save you. Your faith is vain and you will die and go to hell.
     
    #6 Winman, Jun 18, 2014
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  7. The Archangel

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    I have no disagreement with the above statement.

    This statement, however, is quite wrong. Those who hold to Limited Atonement believe that Jesus did die for the elect--so he did die personally for some.

    But, your thinking here--as you've stated before--shows a complete misunderstanding of faith and grace. You seem to think that faith is that thing we contribute to merit grace.

    For you, Jesus' death is that "golden ring" we must all reach up and grab. Though you don't consider faith a "work" it is, at the very least, a contribution that comes from you to the salvation process, hence the term "Synergism."

    But, grace is, by definition, "Unmerited favor." There is noting we can contribute that will merit God's grace.

    Of course, since you've suggested here, Jesus does die for sins, the question must be asked: If Unlimited Atonement is true and Jesus died for all sins, why is anyone sent to hell? Why is there punishment given out on unbelievers if Christ took that punishment already?

    The Archangel
     
  8. Rippon

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    Yes, why? If the sins of everyone have been paid for by Christ what's the point of evangelizing?

    Winman,in your view the Lord has propitiated the sins of every single human being past,present and future. There is no wrath that the Lord can mete out. It would be unjust of Him to do so per your view.

    Again, to tell someone that God loves them and Christ died for them -- there is no difficulty for them --they are safe. There is no urgency that they must repent and believe. And believe what --that God loves them and Christ died for them? You give then a false sense of comfort and security.

    Winman your "gospel message" is truncated to be charitable. It is not biblical.

    Sinners need to be told of their separation from the thrice holy God. They need to be told that they stand in a precarious position. They have offended God with their sins. But there is a remedy. One made a sacrifice for sinners -- the Holy Lamb of God --Jesus. They need to be told to repent of their sins and believe in Christ and His work on the cross. There is pardon and forgiveness through Him alone --there is no other mediator.
     
  9. convicted1

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    Kudos to those last two posts...:thumbsup:
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    He keeps chanting that mantra that those holding to limited atonement cannot even know that they are one of the elect, and have come to know Jesus...

    the NT full of promises/assurances that we CAN now that we jave now passed from death to life, and can have confidence that God will complete tghat which he started in us...

    How can he know that he is really saved, using his own standards here?
     
  11. Winman

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    Good, you are beginning to come around.


    Yes, but you have no idea who the elect are. I have seen Calvinists right here on BB say many times they do not know who the elect are.

    And if you do not know who the elect are, you do not know if you are elect either. You have no idea if Jesus died for you. And if Jesus did not die for you, your faith is vain and you will die and go to hell.

    You distract. All I am saying is that if Limited Atonement is true, you have no idea if Jesus died for you personally. In fact, there is a far greater probability that you are not elect, as Jesus said only a few enter life, but many enter in at destruction.

    If Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith is vain and you will perish.

    But if you want to talk about faith, how do you have faith in an absolute uncertainty??
     
  12. JamesL

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    But those aren't supposed to be the questions asked. You seem content to have a philosophical food fight.

    What you should have asked is - Where Does SCRIPTURE Support such a notion?

    But it's not only you and your team who commit this foul. Your opponents are just as guilty of arguing from vain philosophy.

    Both sides trying to ask those "pin him to the wall" questions, when you should be reasoning from the scriptures.

    And in all fairness, your opponents are able to make a better case from scripture than you
     
  13. Winman

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    This is a fair question.

    My first answer would be that Jesus died for all men, but God requires that you believe to receive this free gift.

    Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    First of all, why would Jesus command us to preach the gospel to every creature if the gospel does not apply to every creature.

    I know, you will say you do not know who the elect are (including yourself), but that is still a lame answer. We are told to preach the gospel to every creature because Jesus died for every man.

    Nevertheless, those who believe shall be saved, those who do not shall be damned. This is what God requires.

    The scriptures say those who do not believe God have made him a liar. God does not give eternal life to people who call him a liar.

    1 Jhn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    I would also answer that we only receive spiritual blessing "in Christ" and you must believe on Jesus to be placed "in Christ".

    Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    I would also answer that we only have access into God's grace by faith.

    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    But how can you believe in an uncertainty? If Jesus only died for some men, and there is no way to know for certainty who are those elect persons, how is it possible to have faith and assurance you are one of those fortunate elect persons? You can't. It is a recipe for doubt and confusion. And the more you try to work up faith, the more you doubt.

    This is why many thousands of Calvinists are plagued with doubt. Google "how can I know I am elect" and you will see page after page, after page of Calvinists who are afraid and lack assurance, wanting to know how they can know if they are one of the fortunate elect persons.

    https://www.google.com/webhp?source...#q=how+can+i+know+that+i+am+one+of+the+elect?
     
  14. Rippon

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    Because dear Mr. winman, the Lord's purposes are beyond your finite imagination. Many destined for Perdition are meant by the Lord to hear the Gospel and to become hardened in the process.

    The proclamation Gospel has dual purposes. It is meant for the eternally lost and elect.
    Do you claim to have the knowledge of who the elect are?
    We are to tell the Gospel to every creature; but not "because Jesus died for every man."

    You have an obsession there winman. You certainly talk about the subject of election more than any Calvinist here though with a very unbiblical view.

    You need a dose of Rolfe Barnard.
     
  15. Winman

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    If Limited Atonement is true, you cannot possibly know Jesus died for you. And if Jesus did not die for you, your faith is vain, you will perish in your sins.

    This is not complicated.

    The NT promises are only for those whom Christ died. The devils believe and tremble, why aren't they saved? Because Jesus did not die for them.

    And if Limited Atonement is true, I am in the same boat you are, I cannot know that I am elect, I cannot know Jesus died for me, I do not have a promise made to me that I can believe in and rely on.
     
  16. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbs:



    You're slowly coming around....

    BTW, "cut n' paste" is fun...LOL J/K....
     
  17. Winman

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    Because one must believe to receive this free gift.

    God is never unjust.

    If you have trusted Jesus, then you have died to sin with him, or rather "in him". If you have not trusted Jesus, then you will die "in your sins".

    Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    That Jesus died for them is WHAT they must believe. What are you telling them to believe, that FAITH saves? Calvinists consider faith a work, that would be salvation by works in your own system.


    My view is perfectly biblical, Jesus tasted death for every man.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    How many men is "every" man?

    And what does believing do? Believing does not change reality. As I have said several times, you can believe a gun is unloaded and put it to your head and pull the trigger, if it is loaded you will blow your brains out. Your faith does not change reality, your faith does not magically take the bullets out of the gun.

    And believing Jesus died for you does not make it so. If he did not die for you in reality, your faith is vain, and you will die in your sins.
     
  18. convicted1

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    :thumbsup: It's the power of God that causes us to believe...John 6:29



    :thumbsup: He gives to everyman according to their deeds. He pours out His wrath on sinners...the goats....and pours grace out to His sheep. He's never unjust. If Christ did die for someone and they died eternally seperated from Him, that's unjust.

    :thumbsup: John 6:29



    Again, faith is NOT a work on our part. It's the gift of God bestowed unto the sinner.




    He also stated that He would lay down His life for the sheep. He also stated He did not pray for the world. If He died for every man, and not every man is saved, then you have a watered down propitiation.



    Faith can move mountains. Faith brings forth grace, brings forth salvation. Without faith...believing, it's impossible to please God.
     
    #18 convicted1, Jun 19, 2014
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  19. Yeshua1

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    r

    You keep on denying the truth of the sciptures though, as those who have been saved by the Grace of God will know they are the elect of God, as the Holy Spirit witnesses that to us, and that we have become new creatures in Christ, new mindset and bent now towards things of the lord!

    I know whom I have believed in, and he is able to keep me fully until that day, i agree with paul on this, do you?
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Almost All Arminians I know insist that we have an unlimited Atoning Sacrifice at the cross. The payment at the cross was sufficient for all sins for all sinners in all of time.

    But the 20 milllion or so Arminians in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination will argue that while we have an unlimited Atoning Sacrificce (NIV 1John 2:2) at the cross - we have a limited Atonement in the fullest sense because not all mankind is saved so not all choose to accept the benefits of that unlimitted atoning sacrifice.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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