Is the NKJV a good Bible version?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Keith M, Sep 1, 2006.

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  1. Keith M

    Keith M
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    You miss the point entirely, askjo. The point is not what the English word is. The point is how well the word judgment (English) translates krisis (Greek). Are you deliberately trying to cloud the issue or are you just not comprehending the issue at all?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    Feel free to start a poll ;)

    Greek 'krisis'
    which does it equate best with?

    1. English word 'judgement'
    2. English word 'condemnation'


    Consider this excerpt from my FIVE JUDGEMENTS writing
    (see Theology Forum topics on Last Days, Tribulation, Rapture, etc.)

    So 'judgement' is obvious:
    a. to discern wisely
    b. to condemn
    c. when god rewards the just (in Christ)

    Whereas the English word 'condemnation' can only
    mean 'to condemn

    Uh, what scripture passage are we discussing?
     
  3. Keith M

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    Ed, in the original thread John 5:24 was being discussed.
     
  4. Askjo

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    No! I did not miss your point. I understand what you are saying – translation! The point is: right or wrong translation from Greek to English. Most people read the Bible in their mother tongue, ENGLISH because they are novice about Greek/Hebrew language. How do they understand the definition of “judgment” on John 5:24 in their mother tongue, English? The point is to translate the word for clarity.

    The condemnation and the judgment are different meanings. The condemnation says that the person by the declaration is guilty or punished. The judgment says a court.

    Let’s examine John 5:24 on the KJV and NKJV:

    John 5:24 KJV

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    One sentence from the bold above shows: He believeth on him and shall not come into condemnation.

    This sentence means that the believer will not be guilty or punished.

    John 5:24 New KJV

    “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

    One sentence from the bold above shows: he believes in Him and shall not come into judgment.

    This sentence means that the believer will not face a court, but this verse on the NKJV does not say which judgment.

    Guilty or Court – Which is best for the believer on John 5:24?
     
  5. Keith M

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    Apparently you just want to argue semantics, Askjo. The following definition is from the King James Dictionary. Look at #3 in the definition and see if this doesn't help you to understand that judgment can mean condemnation. Your argument that they are two different things is refuted by this definition. Thus, the NKJV rendering is just as accurate as the KJV rendering.

     
  6. Askjo

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    You give a good definition on judgment. You are right. I agree with you on what the judgment is.

    Quote:


    Does the judgment include the guilt and the innocence?

    Does the condemnation include the guilt and the innocence?
     
  7. Keith M

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    Please explain. Your meaning is not very clear...

    Of course there is no judgment (condemnation) of the innocent. But without the blood of Christ covering our transgressions, not one of us is innocent.

     
    #7 Keith M, Sep 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2006
  8. Mel Miller

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    Nkjv

    Friends,

    From the Book of Daniel we find the "books will be opened" and the Court will "sit in judgment" before the Verdict of guilt against the Beast is carried out by God's wrath and the kingdom is "possessed by saints". Dan.7:9-22.

    This is a similar case to the "Difference between God's anger and wrath" which is the subject of another thread. There, also, the execution of His wrath does not carry out God's JUDGMENT until His ANGER reaches the point of exhaustion and the Court witnesses the evidence in the 7th Seal against those who have gathered to Armageddon. As in the 7th chapter of Daniel, the saints (of the 7th Seal) come with Christ to destroy the Beast and all those mentioned in the 7th Trumpet who are "destroying the earth"! Rev.8:1-5; Rev.11:15-19; Rev.19:15-21.

    But this fact is beclouded in the KJV and NKJV because neither Bible ever
    translated THUMOS as "anger". They invert the translation of anger and
    wrath in Eph.4:31 and Col.3:8 and Rev.14:10 where, instead of "mixing
    the wine of God's anger (thumos) into the Cup of Wrath (orgay), both have the "wine of God's wrath mixed with indignation (thumos). Thumos is mixed with Thumos!!

    The Lexicons could not have given "wrath and indignation" as definitions of Thumos if the KJV had not inverted the translation
    of Thumos and Orgay in Eph.4:31 and Col.3:8!!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbsup:
     
  9. Mel Miller

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    Nkjv

    Friends,
    Did the KJV and NKJV "mix Thumos in the Cup of Thumos" in Rev.14:10?

    My post above contains this "baited" sentence that is contrary to fact; but it is exactly what the translation amounts to. One translation says God's anger fills the Cup of Anger. The Century Bible. Another says God's wrath fills the Cup of Anger. The New American Standard Bible.

    The KJV and NKJV "invert" the translation so that you would think God's "ANGER" is no more than "INDIGNATION" which is their translation of THUMOS in Rom.2:8. The KJV never recognizes that THUMOS means ANGER!! It therefore leaves the impression that it is OK to switch the meaning of ORGAY to Indignation in Rev.14:10 after translating THUMOS in Rom.2:8 as Indignation!!!

    Does this mean "anger and wrath", as well as "indignation and wrath"
    are meanings of both Thumos and Orgay? Or does it mean that the "vain
    tranditions" of men overruled the REAL truth (of Rom.2:4) that God's "long-anger" must reach the point of "exhaustion" before it explodes in the Cup of Wrath?? Why is it that no Bible except the New Jerusalem Bible renders Rev.15:1 as meaning the "PLAGUES EXHAUST GOD'S ANGER" rather than "completing His WRATH???

    ORGAY means "wrath" in Rom.2:5,8 and in Rev.14:10! They switched
    the translation from "THUMOS meaning indignation" in Romans 2:8 to "OGAY meaning indignation" in Revelation 14:10!! This is so misleading
    because it denies the truth of Rom.2:4-5 that "LONG-ANGER" precedes
    God's "WRATH". It is the wine of His ANGER, not of His wrath, that mixes in the Cup of WRATH ... and then pours out after the Last Plague empties in the air; after the 6th Seal reveals the "DAY of Wrath" has come and after the 7th Trumpet reveals the HOUR of "God's wrath has come"!!! Rev.6:16-17; Rev.16:17-19; Rev.11:15-18.

    Mel Miller www.lastay.net :thumbsup:
     
  10. robycop3

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    Forest, or trees?
     
  11. Mel Miller

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    Is Krisis the same as God's wrath?

    "Forest" for Mel and "Trees" for robycop3! The Redwoods growing on the borders of the Forest; at the precipice of Hell, represent God's wrath!! Anyone "lost among the many names (synonyms) for trees" can't see or understand the magnitude of God's wrath compared to His long-anger ... or even to the KRISES/Judgments that precede His wrath!!!

    Mel
     
  12. robycop3

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    This could be an issue if anger and wrath weren't so close in meaning, with their "relief" being the same thing...punishment. However, it's basically an argument of semantics, which is pointless, since God's anger and His wrath lead to the same results. The KJV and the NKJV, both excellent valid versions, both have it correct. Maybe not microtechnically precise, but correct as to the fact that God is displeased by sinners, and He's gonna punish all who die in sin. If you're looking for something to discredit a given Bible version, you're gonna hafta do a lot better than that.
     
    #12 robycop3, Sep 19, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2006
  13. Mel Miller

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    ____________________________________________________________

    Please show me ONE verse in which the word THUMOS, by itself, brings
    "punishment" in Hell. I don't want the English translation because it is misleading. I want the Greek text!! There are many verses in which ORGAY alone brings eternal punishment in Hell. Your claim that both words "lead to the same results" is baseless and the reason for so much confusion!!

    Only when BOTH words are found together in the same verse can it be
    affirmed that "the wine of God's anger and wrath" lead to eternal
    punishment. Only the word ORGAY, by itself, speaks of eternal punishment
    in Hell. Until you can show me one verse to the contrary, you conclusion
    is the result of the "vain traditions of men". Col.2:8.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  14. Mel Miller

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    Good Bible Version!!!

    Friends,

    The NKJV is indeed a very good translation!

    For those who are interested, I should point out that, even in Isa.13:9,13,
    the KJ translators also switched (inverted) the translation of THUMOS and ORGAY to honor the "vain tradition of men" since Plato taught that "anger must never be ascribed to God"! Origen honored Plato's philosophy even by acknowledging the antithesis of these two words!! Augustine and early Church Fathers refrained from translating makro-thumia as "long-anger", choosing rather to use the Latin "long-suffering" which, BTW, must continue until the Day of Wrath!!!

    God's Wrath (ORGAY) will not be exercised against unrepentant unbelievers prior to the DAY Christ comes to be "glorified in the saints
    and to be admired in all who believer"! WHY? Because "all those who
    believe ON THAT DAY (including ALL Israel) will be saved!! There is no
    escape for those who continue to "blaspheme God"; yet during the
    4th and 5th Plagues of God's ANGER, these wicked men have the OPTION
    to repent ... while the days of salvation remain!!! Rev.16:9-11.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  15. EdSutton

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    "Definitely trees, now thet ya' men- tion it" ! :rolleyes:

    Ed
     
  16. Mel Miller

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    Nkjv Is A Good Bible!


    Ed Sutton,

    "Forest" for Mel and "Trees" for robycop3 and now for Ed! The Redwoods growing on the borders of the Forest; at the precipice of Hell, represent God's wrath!! Anyone "lost among the many names (synonyms) for trees" can't see or understand the magnitude of God's wrath in contrast to His long-anger ... or even to the KRISES/Judgments that precede His wrath!!!

    Judgments are acts of God's ANGER (Thumos) as long as God's "long-anger" remains (makro-thumia; long-suffering patience; endurance of the evil Beast-Worshipers)! The HOUR of Judgment on Babylon and Beast-Worshipers occurs during the 7th Seal (Court of Judgment)!! This occurs
    on the same DAY OF WRATH that Christ "comes in flaming fire to take vengeance on those who disobey the Gospel AND comes to be glorified in the ALL the Saints AND also to be admired by ALL who believe ON THAT DAY" as Christ rescues ALL Israel (they are "kept alive")!!! Rom.11:26-27; Luke 17:33; Joel 2:32.

    Those who are still victims of the "vain tradition of men" handed down since Plato are lost among the trees represented by the so-called synonyms for wrath, as if ORGAY is one of the many trees in the forest!
    The KJV never translated THUMOS as "anger"; but only as "wrath and indignation and fierceness"; so people get lost among the trees!! The giant Redwoods, on the edge of the forest; at the precipice of Hell, represent God's eternal "wrath" which is coming as a "snare on the DAY Christ appears with ALL the Saints"!!!

    It is false to teach "anger and wrath" are synonymous and that the "wine of God's wrath fills the Cup of His indignation or anger"! Rev.14:10. God's "anger is long", longsuffering, since He is not willing that any perish, and His endurance of evil men continues until the DAY OF WRATH!! Only in God's "wrath" (ORGAY) will He torture those who refuse to repent!!!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
  17. robycop3

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    Again, it's a matter of semantics.

    Does sin anger God? Of course it does. Does God always punish sin immediately? Of course not. Many sinners aren't punished at all because they've come to JESUS CHRIST in belief, faith, and repentance. JESUS has already borne the punishment for OUR sins. But at an appointed time, GOD is gonna deal with all unforgiven sins once and for all. At that time, God's anger/wrath will be expended. That's the outline He has given us in Scripture. In the meantime, it's meaningless to fret very much over a slight semantics matter.

    As the AV translators wrote:

     
  18. Mel Miller

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    The NKJV is a Good Translation

    robycop3, your assessment: Words are "a slight semantics matter"!

    As the AV translators wrote:

    Quote:
    For is the kingdom of God to become words or syllables?
    Why should we be in bondage to them if we may be free,
    use one precisely when we may use another
    no less fit, as commodiously?

    __________________________________________________________
    The translators were "IN BONDAGE to the tradition of men"! Col.2:8.
    Did they exercise "freedom" by never translating THUMOS as "anger"
    but in Col.3:8 switched (inverted) the translation of thumos and orgay??
    Must we remain in ignorance of the KRISIS-point of God's ORGAY taking place on the DAY CHRIST COMES IN GLORY???

    If Christians don't understand or warn unbelievers of the supreme horror and total unexpectedness of God's wrath "coming on all those who dwell on all the face of all the earth ON THE DAY CHRIST COMES", and keep
    hiding their lethargy among the "trees" of so-called synonyms of God's wrath, what glory is it for you to gloat in the smugness of their stupor?

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
    #18 Mel Miller, Sep 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2006
  19. robycop3

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    I believe the AV translators knew more about what they were doing than YOU do, Sir.
     
  20. Mel Miller

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    robycop3,

    I heartily agree with you; but you should ask yourself why there is all the discussion among Calvinists about the meaning of words!

    I don't question the inerrancy of the original manuscripts. My concern is to understand why the translators were so inconsistent that, for instance,
    they translated THUMOS as "wrath" more times in Revelation (8 times) than they translated ORGAY as "wrath" (5 times). And why they inverted
    the translation of these two words in Rev.14:10 where the vital doctrine of what leads to the Day of God's Wrath is watered down by translating
    that the "wine of God's WRATH (thumos) will mix with His ANGER (orgay) to send beast-worshipers to Hell forever". Rev.14:11-12.

    The worst casualty of their mis-translation of THUMOS as "wrath" has resulted in making the Calvinistic doctrine of God's wrath refer to the
    period of 7 years that precedes the Day of Wrath instead of the Day
    Christ comes "in flaming fire to take vengeance on them that know
    not God". Since God has "delivered us from wrath", why did translators adopt the "vain tradition" of men (that God is not subject to anger; thumos) and thus made the 7 Last Plagues an "outburst of God's wrath" which unbelievers will suffer and believers are allegedly kept from?

    The primary Dispensational, Pre-Trib Rapture argument claims the Church
    will be taken from earth before the Tribulation because we are not "appointed to God's Thumos-WRATH completed by the Plagues"! Rev.15:1. The Plagues neither complete nor contain God's wrath since Beast-Worshipers who blaspheme God have the option to "repent" during the Last Plagues. Rev.16:9-11.

    You should not be fighting me for exposing the facts of the philosophy and "vain deceit of Plato's teaching" that still permeates the Scriptures! You
    should remain true to the early Church Fathers' understanding that God's
    ORGAY leads to eternal Hell!! His longsuffering patience (long-anger;
    makro-thumia) continues to the very last day when ALL Israel will be saved because God will "pour out His Spirit, will relent of His wrath against Israel and will save them all". Joel 2:11-14,32; Rom.11:25-27.

    Does your statement reflect understanding of the facts or just another
    opportunity for confrontation? No one has even responded to my
    original question: "Why did the translators never translate THUMOS as "anger"; but often translated THUMOS as "wrath"?? When will someone address the issue of the NEW "vain tradition", despite the Latin
    Vulgate, that God's "anger" is somehow equal to His wrath???

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :thumbs:
     
    #20 Mel Miller, Sep 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2006
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