Is there a difference between American conservatives and liberals?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by johnk48, Jan 14, 2007.

  1. johnk48

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    I believe there is.
    At the heart of the conservative movement in America is the belief that God is the Creator and to be reckoned with, that man is a sinner and in need of a Savior, and that government is a necessary evil. Basically, the heart of the conservative movement holds to a biblical worldview much like America's Founders held to.

    At the heart of the liberal movement in America is the belief that man is the highest evolved being, that man is perfectable through gaining knowledge, and that government is part of mans own salvation or perfecting. Basically the heart of the liberal movement in America is a secular humanist worldview, much like leading socialists throughout history have held.

    The following says it much better that I;
    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/1/5/90817.shtml
     
  2. Salty

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    A liberal believes that the goverment know what is best for the individual done, and that the goverment should be in charge.

    A conservative believes a person should be responsible for his own actions, and it is NOT the repsonsibilty of goverment to take care of problems the individual could have taken care on his own.


    One defenition of liberal is to give freely. I dont mind giving freely, I just dont want the goverment giving MY money away freely


    $alty
     
  3. Magnetic Poles

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    Political conservatism and liberalism have nothing to do with belief in God.
     
  4. LadyEagle

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    Sure they do. Liberalism, as already explained, bases its foundation on the ideology of human secularism, i.e., evolution. Conservatism bases its foundation on Christian principles and beliefs, i.e., the Almighty Creator. All political positions (i.e., marriage between a man and a woman, personhood of the fetus, etc.), naturally regress or progress from those positions, human secularism or Christianity and whether one holds a Biblical world view or a secular humanism world view, as stated in the OP.
     
  5. Daisy

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    The Founding Fathers were the radicals of their time. That common men could overthrow the divine right of kings to rule and claim for themselves the rights our Creator granted to all was unpracticed then, literally revolutionary not conservative.

    That common men have any rights at all, let alone the right to self-govern - how is that Biblical? I am not arguing this point, I am asking for information.

    Can johnk48 explain how government being considered a "necessary evil" is Biblical? Again, no argument, just a question.
     
  6. LadyEagle

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    I fail to see how this has anything to do with the OP. I thought this discussion was about world views in the present time.
     
  7. Daisy

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    The OP brought the Founders' worldview into the discussion, likening it to that of present-day conservatives. He seemed to be saying that conservatives are like the Founders while liberals are unlike the Founders.

    Johnk48 stated, "Basically, the heart of the conservative movement holds to a biblical worldview much like America's Founders held to."

    My question is how was their radical notion of self-government which is the very basis for America's founding Biblical or conservative? Johnk48 seems to be lamenting liberals' going outside the Bible for some of their views, but it seems to me the Founders did so as well.
     
    #7 Daisy, Jan 14, 2007
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  8. Martin

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    ==Several points.

    1. I think it is a mistake to claim that the "conservative movement" is a "Biblical worlview" movement. In many cases it is not. Many conservatives are not true Christians, they are just conservative. In fact many conservatives belong to false religions (Catholic, Mormon, etc) and others believe that there are different ways to heaven. Conservatism is not a religious movement. Yes there are those in the movement who are true Christians, but there are many in the movement who are not (ex: Dr Laura, etc). Christians should not aline themselves with non-Christian conservatives. We should do "our thing" and let them do "their thing". We are not on the same side, and we should not believe in the same methods.

    2. Many modern conservatives believe in big government. The only difference between these folks and liberals is what they want big government to do. True Conservatives, Christian or not, believe in small/limited government. That means that we believe in shrinking the size of government in all areas except areas where government has sole authority (ie...military, police, etc). We don't want the federal government to control education, health care, or insurance. We don't like the idea of Social Security (etc). We want those programs either done away with or scaled way back. George W Bush is not a true Conservative. He believes in big government and nation building. Bush is, at best, a moderate.

    3. As for the founders of America. Some of them were Christians, many of them however were deists or belonged to some twisted form of Christian teaching. Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the Bible, did not believe in miracles, denied the deity of Jesus Christ, and he denied the virgin birth. Madison, in his later life, was in general agreement with Jefferson. John Adams was a unitarian (denied the Trinity), Benjamin Franklin doubted the Deity of Jesus Christ, and on and on I could go. So it is not historically correct to say that these men held to a Biblical worldview. A heretic, like Jefferson, may profess to be a "true Christian" (as he called himself) but he did not believe in a Biblical worldview. Many of these men were social Christians and nothing more. Certainly there were Christians among them. I think of John Jay, I think of our first first lady Martha Washington, I think of Patrick Henry, or maybe even Alexander Hamilton (though I am not so sure about him). George Washington may have been a Christian as well though he would certainly have not been evangelical (in the modern sense). Some say Washington was a deist, I don't agree with those conclusions. When one studies Washington one comes away with the clear view that he believed in the Providence of God. However, having said that, I do believe we need to leave the door open to the possibility that Washington was like either Jefferson, Adams, or Franklin. The picture we get from Washington is not that clear, but I doubt he was a deist. Will we see Washington in heaven? Maybe, but I can't be sure about that.

    ==Again there are many modern conservatives who believe nearly the same thing. And there are liberals who do not believe the above statement.

    ==While I am not really a fan of many of these people I don't know that one can call Jimmy Carter a "secular humanist". A liberal, socially and theologically, yes. A "secular humanist"? No. One of my brothers is simular to Carter. He claims to be a Christian, but he is very liberal on some issues (and very conservative on others). These people may not be Conservative Christians, but they are certainly not "secular humanists".

    For me? I am a Christian conservative who believes in very small government (some may even say I lean libertarian). I don't like the views of many modern conservatives because I believe they support big government.
     
  9. carpro

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    "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help. "

    Ronald Reagan


    Conservatives believe this. Liberals don't.
     
  10. tragic_pizza

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    This is factually errant on many levels.

    American Liberalism bases its foundation on the concept of equality for all. American Conservatism bases its foundation on the theocratic ideal.

    "Biblical worldview" is simply code for "toeing the Conservative Evangelical line." There are plentiful Scriptural commands for Christians to care for widows and orphans, protest injustice and prevent slavery of all kinds, to care for the good of all rather than the good of the privileged few... I could go on, but I know better than to think any Conservative will care what I write.

    In short, if you think the only way to be a Christian is to think just like you, your first few millenia in Heaven are going to be eye-opening for you.
     
  11. carpro

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    There are absolutely no scriptures authorizing or compelling Christians to authorize government to compel others (liberalism) to do any of the above.
     
  12. The Galatian

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    carpro, if conservatives believe that government is a problem, why has the most extensive increase in governmental power, and the most extensive reduction in individual liberty taken place during the most conservative administration in recent history?

    Conservatives may or may not favor freedom of the individual. Liberals also can be inclined to favor more or less government of our lives.

    Hence, there can be liberarian conservatives like Ron Paul, or state worshippers like the current occupant of the White House.

    Neither liberalism nor conservatism has anything to do with our faith as Christians. That is merely the argument of those (on the extreme right, and the extreme left) who would like to recruit Christians to a political purpose.

    It is designed to turn you from God to worship of the state. Avoid it.
     
  13. carpro

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    “Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.”

    Ronald Reagan


    Conservatives believe this.
     
  14. tragic_pizza

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    Where, then, are the Scriptures which say it's OK to compe others to work in sweatshops so you can buy cheap plastic crap at Wal-Mart? Where are the Scriptures that say it's OK to tell someone they aren't a Bible-believer if they think that America isn't God? Where are the verses that say it's OK to make war so that you can get gas at less than five bucks a gallon? Where are the Bible verses that say it's OK to judge others as long as they think differently than you do? Where are the Bible verses that say it's OK to oppress people because of the way you interpret Scripture?

    Eagerly awaiting your response.
     
  15. carpro

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    Why do you want to know?
     
  16. Martin

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    ==As a consumer in America you are probably guilty of the very thing you condemn. We all are. Christians should seek justice for the poor (etc) but that does not mean that we should compromise/water down Biblical truth. We should have both solid doctrine and a helping spirit.


    ==Not sure I have ever met anyone, or read anyone, who believes that America is God. So I don't see how that has anything to do with the topic (or any topic for that matter).


    ==Two things.

    1. I don't know that cheap oil is the main reason America has ever gone to war. It may certainly be in the mix, but I don't think it has ever been the main reason.

    2. Oil, like it or not, is a national security interest. Without reasonably priced oil this country, and your life, comes to a slow down. I don't think many people really understand how important oil is in our daily lives (and I am not just talking about cars, planes, and buses).


    ==We don't have the right to pass final judgement. However if the Bible says something is an abomination, if the Bible says something is a sin, then we must say the same thing. As Christians one of our main duties is to warn people about their need for repentance from sin and their need to turn to Christ in faith. I made this point in a different post however you did not respond to anything I said. (see here)


    ==While there are some issues that are open to interpretation on most issues the Bible speaks very clearly. Those who are constantly saying, "well that is your interpretation" usually hold to unBiblical views. The Bible is very clear on most issues.
     
    #16 Martin, Jan 14, 2007
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  17. Ed Edwards

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    Is there a difference between American conservatives and liberals?


    Yes.

    Conservatives would send this country to hell in a hand basket.

    Liberals would send this country to perdition in a
    motorized shopping cart.

    Again:
    I'm against all entitlement programs except the ones
    to which I'm entitled.

    My wife's new Medicare prescription
    scheme is she pays $2.50 a prescription.
    Here most expensive prescription is $60 a month (for the rest of
    her life). I figure she is underwriting the medical needs of
    three other elderly people. Isn't that great ALMS on her part :love2:

    (spelling of 'perdition' corrected)

     
    #17 Ed Edwards, Jan 14, 2007
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  18. LadyEagle

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    The Only Way to be a Christian is through the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ, which is what the Bible says.

    As far as people thinking just like me, I can assure you that God is Pro-Life AND He says practicing homosexuals will not go to heaven. Other than that, a lot of people, not just me, are going to have an eye-opening experience in heaven. I doubt if we will see many politicians there since liars won't be going to heaven, either.
     
  19. Martin

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    ==All I can really say is BOOM and AMEN!!! :thumbs:

    The Bible is very clear on these important issues (God did not leave us guessing). See 1Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, Rev 21:8, Jn 14:6, Matt 7:21-23, Matt 7:13-14).
     
  20. tragic_pizza

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    God is, indeed, pro-life. God is for all life, even those already born.

    As to the rest of your polemic, I won't respond in deference to BB rules.
     

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