is there A Difference between Depravity and Inability of man?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    As it relates to salvation of someone?
     
  2. Winman

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    If you ask a non-Calvinist, the answer is yes. If you ask a Calvinist, the answer is no.
     
  3. JesusFan

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    Knowing that you are a non cal, how do you see those 2 terms than?
     
  4. mandym

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    Seriously?:BangHead:
     
  5. JesusFan

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    yep, as I think that a big problem here is that we define same terms differently!
     
  6. mandym

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    It is not a problem but it is a fact in some cases.
     
  7. Winman

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    I don't actually like the word depraved, it is not in the scriptures. I like the word sinner, that is what the scriptures call us. We are sinners, we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Because of sin we are condemned, for the wages of sin is death.

    Inability is an altogether different word. Inability means you can not perform some function. I cannot physically fly of my own, I am unable.

    Being a sinner doesn't mean you can't believe.

    Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
    13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Jesus said those that are whole (healthy) do not need a doctor. If you are supernaturally regenerated and made alive, you are whole and do not need Jesus. How can you be sick if you are spiritually alive? No, Jesus came to call "sinners" to repentance.

    If you are walking down the street and God regenerates you, then God will never call you, because he only calls those who are sick, those who are sinners.
     
    #7 Winman, Jul 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2011
  8. JesusFan

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    Do you believe that sinners can hear and p[lace faith in Jesus 'alone?"
    Or that God has granted 'common grace" to all men, allowing them chance to freely respond to Jesus?
     
  9. Winman

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    I believe it is impossible for any man to believe in Jesus unless he hears the gospel, either from reading the scriptures, hearing preaching, or being witnessed to by a Christian.
    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    How can you believe in Jesus if you have never heard of him? And how can you hear of Jesus except through the scriptures or the preaching of the scriptures?

    So, without the word of God no man could possibly believe in Jesus.

    Do you think the scriptures, the word of God is a common grace given to all men? Isn't it possible for any man to pick up the Bible and read about Jesus?
    Where did the Bible come from? Did man invent it?
     
  10. JesusFan

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    So you do think man can place faith in Jesus :eek:n their own?"
     
  11. Winman

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    I just said it is impossible for any man to believe in Jesus unless they have heard the gospel. How can you believe in Jesus unless you have heard of him?

    Am I not being clear enough? Are you having difficulty understanding me?
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    Obviously no one can believe in something they've never heard.

    Jesusfan perhaps means when one hears, is it of mans own ability that he believes.

    Your rebuttal is already what we call "a given."

    The Scriptures teach us it is the Holy Spirit that brings us to obey the Gospel unto salvation.
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  14. Winman

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    Well, what did Paul say?

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Paul simply said faith comes by hearing the word of God. He did not mention the necessity of being regenerated to have the ability to believe that I can see in this verse, do you?

    Show me where Paul ever said you have to be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

    Romans 10:14 addresses ABILITY directly. Three times he asks "HOW"

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Doesn't the word HOW address ability? What else does HOW mean except ability?

    First, he asks HOW can a person call on whom they have not believed. If you really do not believe Jesus is the Son of God, you are not going to call on him.

    Second, he asks HOW a person can believe in Jesus unless they have HEARD of him. See any mention of regeneration here? I don't. That's it, that's all he asks, he asks simply HOW can they believe in Jesus unless they've HEARD of him.

    Why do you need to add to what Paul implied? If it is necessary to be regenerated to believe, don't you think Paul would have said so? How could Paul neglect to mention such important doctrine? Why, your whole belief system is founded on the belief in Total Inability, I would think any good Calvinist could show this in scripture. How can you form doctrine without supporting scripture?

    And that a man must simply hear the gospel to believe in shown in verses 18-21.

    Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Paul asks, "Have they not heard?". Israel heard the word of God, they knew (vs.19).

    Again, see any mention of regeneration being necessary? Not one word!

    No, Paul shows the problem was unwillingness to believe, not inability. In verse 21 Gods says he has stretched forth his hands to Israel all day long. I would call that an effectual calling if I ever heard of one. Does God simply pretend to call Israel? Absurd!
     
    #14 Winman, Jul 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2011
  15. JesusFan

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    Correct!

    mainly asking if one holds to the fall "marring" us badly, but still can receive jesus by ourselves, or if fall made us dead enough that we ALL need a measure of God grace applied in order to have Gospel being able to save us?
     
  16. preacher4truth

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    Thanks for all that. Unfortunately your verses are not the entire counsel of God. And, they don't negate the following truth.

    Thus:

    - Peace
     
  17. Winman

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    I will point you also to Paul's words. Paul simply asked, "and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"

    Shouldn't Paul have asked, "and how shall they believe in him unless they have been regenerated?"

    Maybe Paul was having a bad day? Maybe he forgot to mention the necessity of being regenerated to have the ability to believe?

    Show me in Genesis where man lost the ability to believe in the fall. Actually, show me ANYWHERE in scripture it says man lost the ability to believe in the fall, I would love to see it.

    You can spout off your creed all day long, doesn't make it so. Show some scripture that supports your doctrine. Like the old commercial used to say, "Where's the beef?"
     
  18. Winman

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    Those are not my words, those are the words of God. Look in your own Bible, I am not making this up (and you know that).

    You would think such an important truth would be mentioned in scripture. You would think Paul or one of the other prophets or apostles would clearly say a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. It's not there, I've looked. And you can't show it, because you know it isn't there.
     
  19. preacher4truth

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    That's why I said "verses" not "words of Winman." Only you, Winman, have alluded to it being other than Gods Word. I smell straw. :)

    (one more time) Thus:

     
  20. Skandelon

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    Here is the problem as I see it. What you (JesusFan and P4T) see as a "given" wasn't seen as a "given" in the first century.

    You are so used to the gospel being readily available to us that you consider the grace of its provision a "given" reality and thus presume that some greater work of grace is necessary.

    You must understand that that the mystery of the gospel's truth wasn't even known to the apostles until after Christ's ascension and after Paul was called to go to the Gentiles and Peter had his dream with the white sheet. Prior to this, the gospel truth wasn't known to the world, but once it was made known it became the "power of God unto salvation." It is the means through which God's gracious appeal for reconciliation is made known to the world.

    Once the gospel entered our world we were no longer "left on our own." We are now responsible for this truth and our response to it. Those who perish do so because they refuse to love this truth and so be saved. (ref. 2 Thess 2:10)
     

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