Is there a difference?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Salty, May 1, 2009.

  1. Salty

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    Recently lady eagle closed the thread "So why do you American Baptists hate Obama so much?" as it was on page 14 of a 10 page limit.:tonofbricks:

    I read with interest post # 138 (pg 14). (posted by Old Regular) He listed 12 reasons why Bush and Obama are on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

    So what are your thoughts. Were the 12 items the only things they disagree on - or are the two Presidents totally opposite?
     
  2. windcatcher

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    I think OR gave a realistic comparison of differences between the two. I wouldn't qualify all these differences as opposite.... which seems to be your interpretation.

    One thing I don't like.... Bush pushed through some bills...the chief which concerns me, The Patriot Act, with 'bipartisan support' chiefly because the Republican legislators were slow to consider the ramifications to our freedoms. Still this might have been okay if we could be assured that in the future of our country, we would never have a leader to use the more dangerous powers this law seems to allow. As it is, it is benign as long as it is not enforced. But we already know it is being enforced..... and it hasn't risen to the height of our awareness, just how much it may be operating and for causes other than those reported to us. The danger of such law is that it forms the foundation on which a despotic leader can build and validate his executive orders..... and bypasses the restraints of the constitution which don't come into play if and until there is a court challenge to the execution of the law through enforcement. The latent period between collection of data on individuals and the direction of what is considered as being essential information (political, religious, social affiliations, value systems, dissention with government policies, gun rights/ownership/use, constitutional/freedom/rights advocates/concerns), vs enforcement of actions on selective individuals and groups, may not be apparrent until other forces are indoctrinated and inplace to insure enforcement beyond the capacity of citizen appeal, and court balance is favorable to a leader who is driven more by power and control than by allegiance and observance to the constitution.

    Though Obama has already exceeded the speed of the deficit and national debt ..... Bush was no conservative.

    I don't think Bush had any good grasp on the Constitution or fully appreciated the boundaries established by the law of this land. I'm more certain that Obama not only lacks appreciation for the constitution...... he sees the rights protected as law therein as being 'negative' law.... that a corrected document doesn't tell the people the limitations of government but should instead tell the people where their limitations in the exercise of their rights exists. Obama wants to "REMAKE AMERICA"....... not revitalize, not renew, not restore..... but REMAKE AMERICA....... (Inaugural Address). This scares me more than Bush's ambivalance over the constitution!

    Sadly, the laws which came into being during the Clinton-Bush era are now enhanced and advanced by the new laws being propossed by Obama and passed by a government of dominant party with negligible strength in the few strong and brave enough to dissent or challenge..... Sadly there's the willingness of the sheeple who follow him to follow him blindlly and believe every good report..... without putting on their thinking caps and considering the consequences of blind following before they ridicule and add their discouragement to those who voice serious concern. Without more people exercising their caution and concern and asking questions..... not of each other but of their ellected representatives..... we are headed down a road to a society ruled by control of the government.


    Having said all that (sorry, but I get wordy...not good at one line quips), I'd be interested in hearing how SALTCITYBAPTIST would compare or liken the two..... Bush vs Obama? Thank you!
     
    #2 windcatcher, May 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2009
  3. OldRegular

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    Bush made some mistakes but he did not let Gore steal the election in Florida.

    His biggest mistake was thinking he could work with the democrats in DC like he did in Texas. Washington democrats are a different breed. He should have learned from his Dad.

    His second biggest mistake was allowing the press and democrats in Congress beat up on him for his entire presidency without response. If people hear a lie often enough without refutation they will begin to believe it.

    His third biggest mistake was probably his refusal to veto the over spending by the Republican Congress.

    His fourth biggest mistake was his attempt at immigration reform which was in reality amnesty; this coupled with his refusal to close the border with Mexico.

    His next biggest mistake was probably his refusal to fire Rumsfield; this coupled with the ignorance of the Military and others of the Muslim/Arab culture prior to the invasion of Iraq.

    I could probably list some more but even with these mistakes he was a better president than Clinton or obama. He kept his pants zipped and did not sexually abuse teenagers like Clinton. He kept the country safe after 9/11 unlike Clinton during his term. He respects the Military unlike Clinton and obama. Given obama's rash actions in cutting defense spending, cutting back on missile defense, and wimping out before the world motor mouth Biden was probably correct that obama will be challenged early in his presidency. Furthermore, obama's spending makes Bush look like a piker and we "ain't seen nothing yet".
     
  4. historyb

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    Great post!
     
  5. saturneptune

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    Without going into great detail about each and every issue, the biggest mistake Bush made was governing like the liberal he was while running like a conservative. The second biggest mistake that was made was his supporters turning a blind eye to his nonsense and not holding his feet to the fire. That goes for his Republican Congress also, the biggest spenders in American history. It is ridiculous to compare Bush to Obama, because in fact, Bush is the cause of Obama's election. Had Bush done his job, conservatives would not have stayed home in 2008. So Bush suppporters, you are getting exactly what you deserve, you reaped what you sowed. There is no telling how much damage Bush did or will do to this nation, between his inept leadership, and he being the chief agent of Obama's election.

    Why was Clinton elected in 1992? How about Mr read my lips? History does repeat itself, and as long as you Repulican apologists put up liberal candidates, you will get the same result, a lousy, lukewarm, Republican President followed by another Democrat.

    People better learn what the word conservative means, and what is contained in the Constitution, before this country is voted into oblivion by brain dead voters who do not know that there is a difference between Republican and conservative.
     
  6. Salty

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    I think you are right on both counts.
    I think it is a shame that voters will take just one catch phrase as the basis of their vote. :tear: I always learn as much about candidates as I can before I vote - and thats President down to local officials.
    One reason I like to be involved in my political party, is that gives me a better chance to get to know the candidates. Every year I attend the Republican party election night party. Many of the area Republicans at lest know me by name now.

    And there is a reason that I am a member of the Conservative Party - because the tent is too big - and lets too many liberals in. But keep in mind that registering to vote (at least in NY) you select a party. The Party can not kick you out. As long as you are a member of a (state recognized) party, you may primary for any office without party approval.

    The system is not perfect - suggestions?
     
  7. windcatcher

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    Norman Mattoon Thomas (1884-1968) was a leading American sociallist, pacifist and six-time presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America. He also founded what is now the ACLU.

    As a candidate in 1944, he said: "The American people wil never knowingly adopt socialism. But under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will become a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

    He also said: "I not longer need to run as a Presidential candidate for the Socialist Party. The Democrat Party has adopted our platform." Now so have all the Republicrats.

    When Homeland Security labels the Constitution Party as possible terrorists...... it seems the tables have turned against any system but the one party syterm which is made up of Demopublicans and REpublicrats. Very few holding high office or station in the Republican party represent the conservative, constitutional, and moral values which many thought it stood for.
     
    #7 windcatcher, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2009
  8. saturneptune

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    The only suggestion I have is that your state is on the right track. In Kentucky, in order to vote in a primary, one must sign up for one of the two major parties, then can only vote in the primary of that party. It is a close call to make. Do you want your name on a roll with the likes of the Democrats and Republicans in order to be able to vote in a primary?

    Yours seems to be a much superior system. Of course, the real solution is to rid ourselves of both of the major parties run by self-indulgent thugs, and at least replace them with parties that at least act like they have read the Constitution and care about serving its citizens more than accquiring power.
     
  9. saturneptune

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    Exactly right. Both parties together control 100% of the power in this country, and together, they have invented the facade of a government born in the pits of hell. The news media creates the illusion of a difference between the two every election time. The standard is the Constitution, and should be the Scripture. Using either Republicans or Demcorats as a standard to compare each other is like using Jeffery Dahmer as a standard for making Charles Manson look good because he did not canabilize his victims.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    You could give some examples of how Bush governed like a liberal, couldn't you? Get into the issues, the details!

    You might also give your definition of conservative to enlighten us dead brain Republicans, couldn't you?
     
  11. OldRegular

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    Instead of making broad indictments like SN why not give some specific examples of those Republicans in high office who do not represent the conservative, constitutional, and moral values which many thought it stood for.

    I am not happy with the Republican Party but the truth is we have a two party system in this country. We then are faced with the alternative of choosing the lesser of two evils. Sadly the people of this country chose the greater last November.

    Rating the two parties I would say the Republican party is center right while the democrat party is extreme leftist.
     
  12. Salty

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  13. windcatcher

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    Truthfully, OldRegular, I think I'll just save my breath.

    For one thing, you sound already as set as my sweet and dear Father, 87t/o, who was born in the Democratic South where there was only one party and one primary, basically, and the only blacks who could vote, owned property. When the two party system came in, the bullies in the Democrat Party both threaten blacks and made promises to blacks to keep them in the Democrat Party when they registered to vote. My dad turned Republican at an early age while in the military, based on his encounters with others and seeing another side of politics than the one he was raised with in NW FL. At his age, my mother's health is of concern to him ..... and he no longer has the patience to think through the truth that if you want change but you keep doing the same things you've always done you've yourself in part to blame for staying where you've always been.

    My mother's daddy was from Johnston County, NC and 46 years senior to my dad and born in the heart of Democrat country..... Yet, even in his old age, that dear old guy had a keen mind for business and politics as far as critical thinking goes, and saw how the National, if not the local Democrat Party had left what he had thought were its ideals during the FDR era, and started voting bipartisan according to principal and character instead of party loyalty. I believe if he were alive today, he'd seriously consider the Constitutional or any third party as good as any major. He had the character that stood on principals and on a farm, he cut and cleared his own land and sawmilled his own timbers and designed and built his own 3 story house with sweeping porches and raised 7 girls which were of limited use for farm labor and 2 boys, and knew how to make their shoes from leather.

    Now NW FL seems to be a strong hold for Republicans, however, recently..... some of the Democrats who left their party so they could win elections in the 80's, are now showing their true colors and returning to their party. The local Republicans are strong in their conservatism, for the most part, and are electing conservative and morally upright people with family values...... but there is movement both within the party and outside pressure to change it. The [email protected] have targeted this area and are trying their best to turn it into their own kind of country. They have exclusive banks which make exclusive loans and businesses while they boycott other businesses.... and the only way a straight finds out about it is by accidently finding some promotional literature or hearing rumour.

    The Representative for my district to the US House is conservative and ranks among the top 5 when rated on voting for law which is appropriate in line with the Constitution. For all the years Ron Paul has been a Republican, it is clear the Republican Party will accept someone like Arlen Spector, a turn coat Demi, but still refuses to accept Ron Paul as a Republican.... and Ron Paul has the highest ranking of all the Representatives for following the Constitution when voting, he's conservative, and he's for the unborn. Futhermore, he is a supporter of States and individual rights.... which essentially one party has dumped ....all but the lip service which sufices for its minions, and the other major party has gradually been dumping for a while now.

    Republicans have quietly courted the Log Cabin group of [email protected], their money and influence, and their agenda for a while, giving many of them notable places in appointments or backing for office while hiding their secret.... to get and keep their votes and support...... but openly courted and gave hope to the 'religious right' because of their conservative voice and block vote. Well, when you have a chain of followers and each person is dependant on the one in front of him for what he knows..... the only one who really knows anything about the person they are voting for is the man at the head of the line. The others are either too busy, too apathetic, too lazy to do their own homework, or unable to think critically and see the conflicts which should be apparent around them.

    But I'm not answering your question. Do the homework for yourself. Follow the money and the power and the politics. Look up the Council on Foreign Relations and see who their members are. Do the same for the Trilateral Commission. Where you see names.... google, and do the same for corporations. Note the interlocking relationships between people, what their involve with currently and what they've been affiliated with in the past and check our their politics. For this laborous task, go ahead and trust wikiepedia, cause to go further and more intensive will overwhelm you..... until you get a feel for it. Check out the International Monetary Fund, The World Bank, for more people and associates. When you hear of 'charitable organizations', google them and find out who sponsored the start of them and gave them the grants. This will give you some idea of who really holds the strings and that some of these serve as fronts to ward off or control the competition for those the profit motives of those who sponsor and support them. Note the politics of these people..... and how chummy and often paired they are in working for the same goals.

    After you've done your homework, then come back and ask me questions!
     
  14. OldRegular

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    windcatcher

    You speak in generalities but dodge the issue. I listed some 10-12 differences between Bush and obama. Can you list 10-12 similarities?
     
    #14 OldRegular, May 3, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2009
  15. saturneptune

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    That is because you do not have a clue. Until thinking like this changes, our country is going to continue going down the tubes. The Constitution is the standard, not your warped idea of conservatism.
     
  16. saturneptune

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    1. Our military was in shambles when he left office, using the national guard and reserve to fight wars because he would not fund the military at correct levels.
    2. Immigration is out of control. He had no policy on illegal immigration, except sending border agents to jail for doing their job.
    3. He crammed down a 787 billion dollar stimulus package at the end of 2008 with money we did not have.
    4. His and the Republican Congress deficits and debt were at record levels when he left office.
    5. Abortion went on with no action despite a six year Republican Congress and conservative Supreme Court.
    6. Bush and his Republican Congress failed to reform medicare
    7. Bush and his Republican Congress failed to reform social security.
    8. Bush squandered billions of dollars on Katrina, with no accountability, and was late at a response at that.
    9. Bush committed this nation to a war in Iraq with no stategy to win or exit.
    10. Because Bush lied about being a conservative, millions of conservatives stayed home during the 2008 election, and Obama was elected.

    As far as I am concerned, you and the mind set of people who think like you do are responsible for the election of Obama. You really should have no complaints. You are getting exactly the government you deserve. Hope you are happy.
     
  17. OldRegular

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    You haven't a clue as to my ideas on conservatism just as I have no idea about your political philosophy other than you are a againer!
     
  18. OldRegular

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    That is untrue unless you can show evidence to the contrary. We have an all volunteer military you know.

    This was one area I listed where I disagreed strongly with Bush. He did not send the Border Patrol agents to prison, a jury and an over zealous prosecutor did. I thought Bush should have pardoned them immediately. I thought the Appeals Court would throw the conviction out whan it was revealed that the prosecutor did not reveal to the defense the second arrest of their prime witness. Bush did commute their sentence.

    I have indicated that Bush and the republicans spent too much money. This was just one example.

    Those will be small compared to the debt obama and the democrats will leave.

    That is totally false, a lie if you prefer. The Republican Congresds passed the ban on Partial Birth Abortions, which Clinton had vetoed twice, Bush signed it and the Supreme Court upheld it.


    It would have taken 60 votes in the Senate to reform medicare. Bush did not have them.

    Bush tried to reform Social Security after his re election in 2004 but got no support from either the Republicans or democrats. If the Republicans had 60 votes in the Senate perhaps they could.

    Bush can't spend a penny that Congress doesn't appropriate. There is such a thing as the Constitution as you continually rant. The Federal Government cannot ride roughshod over the states. The democrat governor and democrat mayor are primarily responsible for the foulup in New Orleans. FEMA had handled four hurricanes in Florida the previous year with the support of a Republican governor. The Republican governor of Mississippi handled Katrina. Bush got a bum rap on this one.

    Can I assume you were the second fly on the wall of the Oval Office, JC being the first.

    Bush did not lie about being a conservative; that is your delusional thinking. He was obviously not a small government Conservative but compared to obama and those in the other party he is far right.

    No it is people like you and conservatives who sat home or voted for obama who are responsible for his election. I turned out 9 votes for McCain how many did you turn out against McCain.
     
  19. JustChristian

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    First of all, Bush clearly stold both elections. It was particularly flagrant in 2000. Secondly, I'm glad to see that you have finally recognized that the Republicans had control over the congress during most of Bush's presidency. The Democrats barely had control for two years.
     
  20. saturneptune

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    From a Constitutional point of view, both you and Old Regular are on the same side, the same old liberal, anti Constitutional tax and spend liberals to get rich and not serve the American people.
     

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