Is there a place for Modern Management Methods in Church?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ROBERTGUWAPO, Oct 6, 2005.

  1. ROBERTGUWAPO

    ROBERTGUWAPO
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    Yupp, is there a place for modern management methods in church? Things like Appraisal Committees, Accomplishment Reports, "Is there a return on investment thinking," Management by Objectives, Best Motivational Practices, MBAs, ...etc... Or are all these worldly and contrary to how the early Christians behaved in their respective churches.

    Just wondering...
     
  2. bapmom

    bapmom
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    Sure, we just call them things like.......Church budget reports, ministry requirements, Leadership Requirements, Ministry Fund Requests, Church Constitutions......etc
     
  3. All about Grace

    All about Grace
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    Yes
     
  4. StraightAndNarrow

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    The church isn't a business. It has entirely different objectives. That being said, effective management of it's members time and money is important. There is a group in my church, however, that talks about a Pastor who will be CEO of the church. Let's just say I totally disagree with that perspective.
     
  5. tenor

    tenor
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    There is most definitely a place for "modern management techniques" in the church, but they must be tempered with the love and concern of Jesus. WE, as the church, are not a business, but we need to run things (bad choice of words) "decently and in order."

    Some organizational principles can help us do this. However, we need to watch our legalistic application of these. When a congregation is seeking God's Will and guidance we should rely on prayer and concensus rather than "an up-down vote."

    Tim
     
  6. Craigbythesea

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    No, there is not.

    I pioneered a church starting with nothing but a lease on the second floor of the oldest surviving building in town. The two story building was in such poor condition that the second floor had not been occupied for 20 years. The roof leaked, the plaster ceiling was falling to the floor, and the asphalt tiles were buckling from the rain water. I had NO support from my home church or from any of my friends. Neither did I have any tools or equipment to repair the building—and of course I didn’t have any money to rent or buy any equipment or to pay anyone to do the work. I was dependent solely upon God to provide the equipment, the materials, and the labor. I asked no one for help; instead, I prayed and God provided everything—including the congregation!

    When the time came that we needed a much larger facility, it was brought to my attention by another pastor that another facility was for lease. I checked it out and learned that the lease agreement included the purchase of all of the furnishings in the facility, including the grand piano, the solid hardwood pews, all of the tables, chairs, and equipment in the fellowship hall, the ten-burner gas stove, refrigerators, freezer, pots, pans, dishes, flatware, etc., etc., etc. in the kitchen, plus a multitude of other items.

    Our budget was VERY tight and we didn’t have any money at all to pay the lease, let alone buy all of the furniture and equipment. Nonetheless, we signed the papers and trusted God to pay for everything—and He did so! We kept our church doors open seven days a week, in both our old building and the new facility, till midnight and had a fuller program than almost any church in the county, but we took up only one offering a week—during our Sunday morning service—and we did not teach tithing or pressure anyone into giving.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. tenor

    tenor
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    The question is not -- either/or but both/and. You can rely on God, as we must do, AND use "management" techniques and organization.

    When Jethro helped Moses organize the Hebrews in the wilderness, it was a management/organizational technique. Did Moses stop relying on God, no.

    The problem comes when we place the organizational/management techniques ABOVE relying on God. When we are more concerned abot having a large "rainy day" fund rather than investing in missions and ministry.

    Having life insurance is not ignoring God's provision, but can be part of it. The same goes for saving for retirement and medical treatment.

    It boils down to the attitude - DO I(we) trust God or the management/organization technique?

    Tim
     
  8. tenor

    tenor
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    No, there is not.

    I pioneered a church starting with nothing but a lease on the second floor of the oldest surviving building in town. The two story building was in such poor condition that the second floor had not been occupied for 20 years. The roof leaked, the plaster ceiling was falling to the floor, and the asphalt tiles were buckling from the rain water. I had NO support from my home church or from any of my friends. Neither did I have any tools or equipment to repair the building—and of course I didn’t have any money to rent or buy any equipment or to pay anyone to do the work. I was dependent solely upon God to provide the equipment, the materials, and the labor. I asked no one for help; instead, I prayed and God provided everything—including the congregation!

    When the time came that we needed a much larger facility, it was brought to my attention by another pastor that another facility was for lease. I checked it out and learned that the lease agreement included the purchase of all of the furnishings in the facility, including the grand piano, the solid hardwood pews, all of the tables, chairs, and equipment in the fellowship hall, the ten-burner gas stove, refrigerators, freezer, pots, pans, dishes, flatware, etc., etc., etc. in the kitchen, plus a multitude of other items.

    Our budget was VERY tight and we didn’t have any money at all to pay the lease, let alone buy all of the furniture and equipment. Nonetheless, we signed the papers and trusted God to pay for everything—and He did so! We kept our church doors open seven days a week, in both our old building and the new facility, till midnight and had a fuller program than almost any church in the county, but we took up only one offering a week—during our Sunday morning service—and we did not teach tithing or pressure anyone into giving.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Praise God! Glad to hear the work is going so well.

    Actually you are. You are entering to business agreements, organizing your resources for ministry, etc.

    The teaching on tithing and giving has been a part of the church since its earliest times. I don't think this is not what was intended by the original question.

    Tim
     
  9. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    Tenor wrote,

    Dear Brother,

    We did everything that the textbooks said NOT to do!

    [​IMG]
     
  10. jshurley04

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    No, I disagree, you did not. The objective of a successful organization is to complete its mission and not do so in a manner in which it goes out of business. You may not like it but you did manage your resources and trust God at the same time. If you had not managed yourself, the God would not have blessed and your church would not be successful.

    Just because something is modern does not make it unfaithful to God's Word or bad stewardship or place us in a place of not trusting in God. Anyone that thinks along those lines is not fit to be in charge of peanut butter at the church picnic. Not properly managing a church is a sign of ignorance on the part of the one in charge. This is one of the big, not main, reasons that churches dwindle and fail.
     
  11. Deacon

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    How does faith fit in to modern management methods?

    I've seen it work both ways.

    Years ago fiscal management was put (far) behind heart-felt needs. By faith we strove to raise big funds for missions, ignoring (for a time) the tempory needs of the church (heating bills, salarys, insurance, maintenance etc.). I remember years of over-due bills and under funded budgets. It was tough but God honored the faith of our congregation and we grew.

    Later we developed a more sound financial policy and strove to keep to budget. We plan well and strive to be good stewards of what God has blessed us with. We have been blessed too.

    Rob
     
  12. Brother Ian

    Brother Ian
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    There is a place for modern management techniques in the church. I think we have re-defined terms that are part of the Bible. Accountability, obedience, authority, submission. All of these are described in the Bible that we use in business today.

    When the pastor becomes the CEO, that is when things get dicey. I would recommend reading Escape from Church, Inc. by Dr. E. Glenn Wagner. He left Promise Keepers (Vice President) to become pastor of Calvary Church in Pineville, NC. On the back flap of the book, Pastor Wagner says,
    He descibes the question on this thread throughout the book. A great read.

    As a side note, Dr. Wagner left Calvary to start a ministry devoted to biblical leadership. You can find out more about Future Lead here:
    http://www.futurelead.org
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Dear Brother,

    We did everything that the textbooks said NOT to do!

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]A good book will speak to the real issues not what is typically taught to a student in a business program. So often the mechanics is taught in prtograms so one can be a manager not an entrepreneur.

    Again and again your answer shows what really matters--passion. The number one thing is who your God is. The number two thing is who leads the people of God. The number three thing is who the people of God are.

    It is the same way in business--passion and who leads.

    What a lot of churches don't realize is that the majority of churches fail within two years and so do the number of businesses that start.

    The average large growing church only grows at the rate of about 3 percent each year. By growth standards that is not growth but plateaued.
     

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