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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Oct 6, 2011.
As the Apostle paul used both while referring to our lives now in Christ!
From my post you know I believe we are saved by/through the faith of Jesus the Christ.
By grace are ye saved through the faith.
Paul says we are justified by the blood and he also says we are justified by the faith of Jesus.
Are we justified two different ways or do both mean the same thing?
That the obedience of the Christ unto death, his shed blood, makes us just, reconciles us to God the Father who in turn raised him Jesus the Christ from the dead which is the life by which we shall be saved.
By Grace through the faith of Jesus he justified, reconciled us, and according to his mercy he saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit to Jesus the Christ which is then shed on us and makes heirs of the hope of eternal life. We will be inheritors at his coming and the resurrection.
Eph 2:8, Rom 5:9, Gal 2:16, Phil 2:8, Rom 5:10, Gal 1:1, Rom 5:10, Titus 3:5,6,7, 1 Cor 15:50 col 3:4 1 Thess 4:16-18
no, Paul didn't use both. You only find that in the KJV's rendering.
I wonder why Jesus Christ, the Creator of the universe, God in the flesh, omnipotent and omniscient, needs faith?
Unless it means that he gives saving faith to those who believe.
2 Timothy 2:
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Man has a responsibility, but we love to take it from them.
Jesus is faithful to those who He has been giving those who are in Him, He isn't faithful to those who He has not been given. Those who listen and learn from the Father through the words of Jesus will come to Him, the Father drawing them to them Jesus will remain faithful.
There was two students going to a theology class. One of them knew it all, and was going to the class just for the credits. The other cleared his mind to learn from the teacher. The first didn't like the class the teacher didn't say things that added up to his own theology, he changed teachers tell he did find one.
The other by faith believed the teacher even if the things didn't add up to what he thought he believed to be true. He didn't understand much of what the teacher taught but he continued to trust in what the teacher was teachings. Things became more clearer and clearer the more he learned from the teacher. He passed the class with honors and became a great teacher himself.
Which student did what he was suppose to do with Christ not a man?
You know even if we are not faithful, even if we don't understand things. We are to trust in Christ over our own understanding, He will remain faithful. No matter how hard our life gets, even if we can't trust in our own faithfulness we can trust in Christ so remain in Him.
Amen, when one is called by God and God gives him the Spirit of Christ he will always belong to Christ.
Christ is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things we have not seen.
Jesus the Christ is the faith, the author and finisher of the faith.
Because for the very reason in your post. God in the flesh, the seed of Abraham. God the creator of the universe beget in the virgin Mary the Son of God the seed of Abraham, who with Abraham was given promises. Why would He need to be given promises? Why would He be an heir of anything? Gal. 3:19 says, til the seed should come to whom the promise was made.
This is talking about an inheritance. Why would He be inheriting anything? Because He is also the son of man. What promise did the risen seed of Abraham receive from his Father God that was then given to men of his calling? Acts 2:33 and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Gal. 3:22 that the promise (of the Holy Spirit)
by faith of Jesus Christ
night be given
to the believing ones (the called according to his purpose)
The next three verses will tell you there was a time when the faith wasn't and then a time when it was. That was when the Christ died and you became justified by his faith his blood. Why did He need faith?
Was the following promise made for and to sorry, filthy, disobedient, sinful man or was it made to the Son of God, the Lamb without spot, the seed of Abraham? Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
He emptied himself.
My desire is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I want to encourage that no one turn away from God and not believe, but to remain in Christ.
So the other side is that Christ is faithful to disown those who disown Him. I am talking about those who are already His not those who have not ever come to Christ or even heard of Him. I am talking about those who are waiting for Him to come for the first time, but He has already. Those who denied or disowned the one they have been waiting for; the one who will crush the serpents head.
Wouldn't jesus "need" to exercise faith as we do today, as he was operating from his humanity, not divinity, while upon the earth?
is that rendering right than or not?
in Christ is correct.
Rom 5:9,10 Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son
I assume blood and death there being the same.
If it is the blood of Jesus that justifies and or reconciles you to God the Father how can it be by your faith in?
YLT having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.
NSAB nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of [fn]the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of [fn]the Law; since by the works of [fn]the Law no [fn]flesh will be justified.
When you change it from of to in then you become the one electing to be justified. Also from the literal NSAB changes the literal from the Greek, "we in Christ Jesus believe that," (did, In YLT also added) to, "even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that,". That is making our believing and our faith the cause of our justification.
"We in Christ Jesus believe that." The reason these believe is because they have been called by God and given the Holy Spirit setting them apart from those who do not believe.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
They have been called and follow in belief.
The Greek is correctly translated as "in" and not "of." Also, i'ts not Christ's faith. Christ needs no faith. It's through our faith. It's through our faith in Christ. I'm sure you are not denying that man has faith in Christ for salvation. That would be a major flaw in theology. Even in the KJV, "faith in" terminology is used.
Faith of Christ/faith in Christ
To me it is the faith of Christ that is our faith come from the words of Christ, that we have to have faith in Christ that His words become our faith.
It is like a transference. Jesus brings us our faith through His word and we believe trust in the faith He is given us. It is both to me. We have the faith of Christ that because Christ doesn't need faith in Himself that it is the words that is the faith and we accept it by having faith in Christ.
It is very complicated, but so easy a child can understand, but yet so hard to put into words.
When you trust in someone you know what to do, but to try to put it into words it is more complicated. So it is easy for someone to play with the words into to say that this faith didn't come from you, but from someone else. It has, but we exercise our own faith to. I didn't know to trust in Christ until I was told, so it didn't come from myself, but yet it has.
New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
New International Version (NIV2011)
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
By faith they did pass through the Red Sea as through dry land, which the Egyptians having received a trial of, were swallowed up;
I want someone to show me from the scriptures how these believing, happy unafraid ready to take the next step people had the faith to take off through those walls of water without concern. Go back and read the story. A few weeks later some gathered and stored manna against the word they heard from God. They built the golden calf. They were just eaten up with faith.
The ones that showed faith were the guys with the horses and wagons but I'm here to tell you, by faith they drowned.
The just shall live by his faith. Who do you think the his is?
Do we have faith being forced through the red sea to follow the Israelite?
Do you think some Egyptian with the Israelite not apart from them survived by faith going through the red sea?
Who do you think were the foreigners with the Israelite who by faith had all the males circumcised to join the passover festivities as a natural born where?
Do you think any one has faith of God if they don't have faith in Him?
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Was the following inclusive in the promises God made to the seed of Abraham. the Christ?
From Acts 2:33 and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit.
Did his receiving the aforementioned take place because of the following? In other words if the following had not taken place would he have been raised from the dead and received the promise of the Holy Spirit?
YLT Phil 2:8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, YLT Heb. 5:5 through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,
Was it not the despising the shame. and the suffering, and the enduring of the cross even unto resisting unto blood, striving against sin that brought Jesus, the begotten Son of God the seed of Abraham being the author and finisher of the faith?
KJV Heb. 12:2-4 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of the faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Is Faith (a noun) something that God has done or is it what you believe about God.
Now, if God were to choose you or elect you through or by the faith to be conformed to the image of his Son. would you not then be a believing one?
Did Paul leave that morning for Damascus as a believing one? What did Paul being one of the elect become after Jesus, God called him that morning. Did Paul hear the voice of Jesus and follow him in belief? Did faith, Jesus come to him by his hearing the Word of God? Did Paul become a sheep because he believed or did he believe because he was a sheep?
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
Faith in Action
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
I am not one of the prophets of old, not one of twelve disciple’s chosen by Jesus nor I am Paul.
I cannot speak for them or anyone else. I can only tell you how they were called by what the scripture teaches.
I can speak for myself. I have not seen Jesus on the cross or Stephen stoned. I have not seen what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus. I believe Paul is an example of a natural branch being grafted back in. I do believe Paul seen them, Paul seeing Jesus on the cross is my opinion and also my belief Paul was really going to Damascus to hear more about Jesus which is my opinion.
Since all of us are different God chose to bring us to the same truth different ways as He did heal each blind man.
The faith I have is the word of God the noun that it is finished now it is time to enter His rest.