Is there final perseverance in heaven?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Jun 15, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    This post is aimed at those who reject final perseverance and believe a man can reject his salvation or fall from grace: After 67 million years of being in heaven, will I be able to reject my salvation and fall from grace like Satan (a perfect being) did? If we can lose our salvation or fall away on earth, why can't we fall away in heaven? (don't say because we will be perfect in heaven because so was Lucifer)
     
  2. BobRyan

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    YES you CAN!!

    But you won't BECAUSE (for the umpteenth time) the ARMINIAN universe of God is BASED on free will which is MOTIVATED by reason, compelling data, "What works".

    The only REASON that we have had 6000 years of sin and misery and suffering -- instead of 6 seconds -- is that this is compiling a HUGE amount of compelling data about the Gospel and the character of God and the unworkable nature of rebellion.

    (See how this principle is demonstrated in Job 1 and 2).

    Lucifer did not say "HEY I have a good idea - how many want to burn with me in hell??"

    Neither did Adam and Eve say "We would like to get sick and die, have our children murder each other and then have everyone drown in a world wide flood. Come one PLEASE let us do it!"

    No such thing ever happened!

    Think about it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Baptist Bro

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    Bob,

    Your reply to a simple question is hand waving, hysterical, irrelevant nonsense. It sounds like you are desperately trying to avoid the logic of your own position. If there is free will now, there will be free will 67 million years from now. If we can fall from grace now, we could fall from grace then.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Is that your analysis of the "details" in Job 1 and 2???

    If so -- not very compelling.

    Is that your analysis of the ARMINIAN position looking to see if it is consistent or not?? If so... not very detailed or compelling.

    The "details" of my response show that I said WE CAN CHOOSE error and rebellion 67 million years from now - but we WON'T and the REASON is that ARMINIAN models have beings MAKING CHOICES based on information, logic, force of argument, completeness of data etc.

    I then SHOW how a "more informed" position would have benefitted Lucifer and Adam in that FREE WILL system they ALSO lived in.

    Bottom line... it was an incredibly CONSISTENT response. One that would be "expected" from the Arminian POV.

    Your Calvinist argument that "IF anything CAN go wrong it WILL" ... "IF anyone CAN choose wrong they WILL" -- has never been a principle of God's creation!!

    Please look "At the details" and then respond if there is something that does not appear to fit.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Monergist

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    So the reason that we have to endure so much sin and wickedness here is that we don't have enough "COMPELLING DATA???" :confused:
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    Well for one, how will you know that you have been in heaven for 67 million years? What measurement standard would you use?

    Two, If you are in heaven, you have already been saved, salvation is past tense, ancient history; you are now in everlasting life!

    Three, the final judgement has occured, is past tense, and satan and all evil has been cast into the lake of fire, there is nothing more by which you can be tempted. AND, there is no dying there so what would you fall away too! You might possibly be able to sit in a corner and pout, but you would be the only one!

    Four, Where is it declared that Satan (Lucifer)was ever a perfect being? Was he God? Or just a wannabe? He obviously was not perfect because he knew himself that he lacked something and that is why he attempted to usurp the throne of God! He was flawed, IMPERFECT, in even thinking that he could usurp God's throne.

    Five, It is ONLY here in this natural life where we are so limited that faith is required of us. In heaven ALL knowledge will be revealed to us, and that in itself negates the need for faith! And with ALL knowledge revealed to us there will be no possibility of deception leading to falling away.

    Don't know much about heaven do you?
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    A false conclusion Baptist Bro!

    Yes, our circumstances will be radically different than they are now, and our free will will take on a whole new dimension. There will be no falling away from the faith, because there is no longer any faith! We will have full knowledge and with knowledge faith is not possible. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." When we are in heaven what is there to hope for? With all knowledge, what is there that we cannot see?

    Fall from grace? NOT A CHANCE in heaven! That only occurs under heaven.
     
  8. Monergist

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    Why should we not consider that ALL angelic beings were created perfect, and apart from those who rebelled, remain so?

    If they are imperfect,the atoning death of Christ will not benefit them. And nowhere does scripture indicate that Satan and his legions were created inferior to the others.
     
  9. Monergist

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    Unbelievable :rolleyes:
     
  10. Baptist Bro

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    Wes, Outwest,

    "There will be no falling away from the faith, because there is no longer any faith! We will have full knowledge and with knowledge faith is not possible. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." When we are in heaven what is there to hope for?"

    1 Corinthians 13:13
    So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
     
  11. webdog

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    Wes, where does it say in the Bible we will have "full knowledge"? Isn't God the only one with "full" knowledge? We will be humans in heaven, learning, socializing, communicating, etc. I don't believe we will ever have full knowledge, or we would be God.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Why should we not consider that ALL angelic beings were created perfect, and apart from those who rebelled, remain so?

    If they are imperfect,the atoning death of Christ will not benefit them. And nowhere does scripture indicate that Satan and his legions were created inferior to the others.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Where do you find that atonement is for Angels and the Heavenly host? Were the angels covered by the Levitical atonements?
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    Unbelievable :rolleyes: </font>[/QUOTE]What is faith? :mad: :mad: :mad:

    You should know the answer!
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    Your point?
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    We will not be human in the sense of the term as used here in this life! I am convinced that since we are made in the image of God, that we will be spirit as God is spirit! There will be no flesh as we know it today, in heaven.

    When we are in heaven, we are directly with the source of all knowledge, and as "Children of God" is there anything that HE withhold's from us? Remember, once we are fully in "eternal life", we will be there for a long long looooooooonnnnnnnnggggg time!

    I suspect that your concept of Heaven is flawed. And since no one but Jesus has come from heaven, none of us will know in this lifetime exactly what our life in heaven may be like. But I don't think it will be a schoolhouse, or a social hall, but we will communicate openly and freely one with all others etc.
     
  16. Monergist

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    My point is that atonement is NOT for angels...
     
  17. Monergist

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    Unbelievable :rolleyes: </font>[/QUOTE]What is faith? :mad: :mad: :mad:

    You should know the answer!
    </font>[/QUOTE]According to your line of reason, if I aquire that knowledge it would destroy my faith.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Unbelievable :rolleyes: </font>[/QUOTE]What is faith? :mad: :mad: :mad:

    You should know the answer!
    </font>[/QUOTE]According to your line of reason, if I aquire that knowledge it would destroy my faith.
    </font>[/QUOTE]According to my line of reasoning, if you are with the OBJECT of your faith do you still need faith? If you are with Jesus do you need faith in Jesus? After all you are in his very presence so for what reason do you require faith, the substance of things hoped for? What do you hope for? Is it not to be in the presence of the Lord? If you're there, what need do you have for faith?

    Like I've said all along, most of you Calvinists do not have a clue of what faith is! And you just proved it!
     
  19. Baptist Bro

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    Wes,

    My point in quoting 1 Corinthians 13 is that faith, hope, and love are three things that abide beyond this present age.
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    My point is that atonement is NOT for angels... </font>[/QUOTE]Agreed and it was not for man either!

    It was for sin...a principality and a power! "We wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with principalities and powers". It was sin that Jesus died to atone, because sin had the power of death over man. However, because Jesus atoned for sin, it no longer has the power of death over man. Now man, through faith in God, can have everlasting life! Before the atonement man faced death for sinning, but now the only power sin has is what each individual man gives to sin, by continuing to sin, and not repenting from it!
     

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