Is This Biblical?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Blessed lady, Jul 13, 2009.

  1. Blessed lady

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  2. Jedi Knight

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    I think it's not right for believers to think they are casting out demons. 2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. God rebukes demons and those "preachers" who command Satan or demons is acting very silly and don't know what they are even doing.
     
    #2 Jedi Knight, Jul 13, 2009
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  3. Allan

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    I have not yet watched the video, and anything on TV that reports such is almost always in an unbilbical manner.

    With respect to your above- what do you do with scripture which states Jesus gave the disciples authority to cast out demons. And when they returned they were excited that the demons were subject to them. And that scripture states "they shall cast out demons" with reference to Christ's followers. and others as well - like Paul cast the demon out of the medium who followed him around. They did not turn it over to God nor did they ever ask God to rebuke any demons. We have been given the authority of Christ Jesus and are His ambassadors (meaning that we are acting in His stead with the full authority of the one we represent). Granted we should not glory in that we have power and authority over satan and his demons but as Jesus tells the 12 we they returned - be joyful that your names are writting in the Lambs book of life. The perspective is that all that we have is from God and thus all glory and honor goes back to Him who has both empowered and authorized us to go forth..

    The passage in Timothy is not speaking about a unbeliever, but a believer who has allowed themselves to be ensnared by Satan - once again (as we were before) Remember that Paul in Romans 7 states of the believer that he is a servant to whom he yeilds himself to obey. We are not owned by Satan only under his sway in that area of unrepenant sin. We can not love two masters, thus we will love the one and hate other or we will cling to one and flee from the other. Have you ever met a christain with a particular unrepentant sin in the life who was running to God or were they trying to keep away untill they couldn't help it and repented and ran back to him fleeing from that sin again.

    Jude is refering to the the fact that angels do not, in order to avenge themselves, rail against (speak evil of) the demons though ungodly, when they have to contend with them. This is not a reference to the casting out nor down of satan but when there was an 'argument' over the body of Moses, Micheal simplely turned it over for God judge the truth.


    That said, I can tell you without pause or hesitation that christians can and still do cast out demons based upon biblical authority to do so - as the need arises. I deal with them ONLY when the make themselves known through various things that are strangely out of character for situation at hand. And just because a person is in a particular sin (like drugs, homos*xuality, drunkeness, ect..) DOES NOT MEAN they are demon possessed.
     
    #3 Allan, Jul 14, 2009
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  4. annsni

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    As children of the Most High God, it is absolutely right that we not only address demons but rebuke them and cast them out as well.
     
  5. Jedi Knight

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    I believe that was an different time for that ability by the the 70 disiples and Apostles...not for Christians today.
     
  6. Allan

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    Fair enough.. do you also believe that only the apostles spoke in tongues.
    It is noted as was one of the signs that 'follow those who believe' as it is listed along with the casting out of casting out demons.

    Can we state that only apostles have been kept from death when a poison or deadly thing had been ingested, and that throughout the history of the Church?

    Can we state that not once in the history of the Christian church (with the exception of the apostles) that people were laid hands upon and no one was healed?? (laying on of hands always was done so with prayers to God to save the sick; this is not refering to the gift of healing).

    If these things have indeed happened apart from the apostles alone (or even the 70 as included) what are we to say then ?? :)
     
    #6 Allan, Jul 14, 2009
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  7. Jedi Knight

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    Hey Allan,do you have scripture that converts after the Apostles cast out demons and had authority to tell them what to do? Example if you believe the demons are subject to YOU can you tell them to go to the pit and not come back out? If you believe you can then your works is cutout for you or us. I think the charismatic movement pushes this idea and Jesus is the only one who can make demons or Satan do what he wants. Our job is to teach the truth that sets them free from the lies Satan and the Lord can deliver them from blindness and bondage from the affects of the devil. At one point the church was told to deliver one over to Satan and when he repented didn't have to do a casting out service on the guy.
     
  8. Darrenss1

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    Its my understanding that the Apostles had "sign gifts" before the Holy Spirit was given, for this reason even Judas Iscariot an unsaved man could perform the works of the apostle. This is me is valid to correctly delineate the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" (for all believers) from the "sign gifts performed by Apostles" (Apostles only).

    One of the functions I believe in scripture of the sign gifts was to validate the ministry, person and teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ, if the teachings (for example) are found to be inaccurate (generally speaking) the sign gifts of the apostles would not be have their place. This is one way to contrast the miracles or spiritual activities of Satan against that of the Lord, is that of the accuracy of the message and how it brings glory to God.

    So I don't believe the sign gifts are actually being practised today, as I don't see anyone whom fits the classification of Apostle, yet all believers can be gifted by the indwelling Holy Spirit. Having said that, nothing comes without prayer, God has always been the healer and on a case by case level, according to His will.
     
  9. Jedi Knight

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    Agreed:type:
     
  10. Darrenss1

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    Is it a one package deal for the "gifts of the Spirit" as it was for the "signs of the Apostles" including raising the dead? I just don't see how this commission in Matthew 10 was given to ALL christians to follow.

    Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
     
  11. Darrenss1

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    Do you mean christians ought to cast demons out of other christians Or non-christians? In the pentacostal church I used to attend years back they taught that christians are to "enforce" God's will and in that sense, God was said to "obligate" the faith of the christian but not do anything unless a christian "invited" God into that given situation. So a demon can indwell a christian and will not leave unless they are "told to leave" by the authority of the "name of Jesus" and strangely only if you address the demon by their correct name, lust, rebellion, fear, anger...etc

    Anyway, demonology is a complicated mess if you ask me, the bible doesn't make it that confusing.

    Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
    6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
    6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
    6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
    6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
    6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
    6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

    Darren
     
  12. Allan

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    Ummm.. I think you have the wrong presumption here. This is not talking about 'sign gifts' unless there is scriptural reference to a person who has the gift of drinking posions and not getting hurt, or the gift of being bitten and not be hurt. What is being said is that these 'signs' will follow my disciples/believers. Not that all shall have them but that these things shall be noted amoungst them. Laying on of hands to pray for the sick is not a sign gift but is commanded to be done by the Church leadership if a person is sick and seeking help. This is not the gift of healing which transpired upon their word (see Peter and lame man) this had to do with prayer and seeking God.

    The 'new tongues' aspect can be seen as one of two events or even both.
    1. is that it refers to a sign gifting (simply refering to the fact that it is from God and was given to His followers)
    OR
    2. It refers to Gentiles being saved and thus the 'new tongues' refers to not only the Jewish people as God's follower and thus His chosen people but also now extending toward the Gentiles with different languages but now coming into one religious group.

    Jesus was not stating these things are seen in every person nor was it refering to every Apostle. In fact we only have validation of Paul being bitten and not being hurt but never any other apostles. This was not a gifting but a 'sign' of him being a follower of God. Just like it is with us today, if God chooses to act on our behalf. Signs here refer to 'wonders' done NOT always by them but in context also to them. Thus we have both aspects transpiring.

    Now what is of note that needs to be looked into as well is what did the church the apostle till now think of these things? Note also that these were not brought up in the Charismatic view but existed long before them just not in the manner nor understanding that they have brought into it.


    And lastly, what of those whom have had demons cast out of them and come to know Christ Jesus as their Lord and saviour, declaring that there was a spirit literall controlling them and speaking through them and that when it left they could think and act of their own accord again. Remember, in scripture, not every demon possessed individual was sitting in the grave yard cutting themselves. We find one sitting in church (actually the synagogue) when Jesus came in ONLY THEN did show what most 'assume' is the typical signs of one possessed. The gist - He ran up to Jesus and begged Jesus for mercy. They can be anywhere and you not know it. But what do we do when they reveal themselves?
     
    #12 Allan, Jul 14, 2009
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  13. Allan

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    The first portion is a very messed up view NOT based upon scripture.

    Secondly the passage in question is about how 'we' keep ourselves from falling prey to the enemy in our own lives and does not necessarily speak of anything else.
     
  14. Jedi Knight

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    I respectfully disagree my brother.... and where in scripture do you see converts "not apostles" after Jesus resurrection casting out demons or raising the dead for that matter?
     
  15. Allan

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    Hey, no problem. Do you believe that demons are still around and that they 'do' possess people still??

    Where does raising the dead come from. Did I say 'anything' concerning this? This isn't even listed amoung what is being discussed.

    Also where do you find anyone other than one act of Paul casting out a demon? We aren't given listing of the majority of things that 'happened', we don't even have but one sermon recorded in the NT by an Apostle (Peter). The NT wasn't written for the purpose to be a historical record. Jesus said these things shall accompany or follow those that believe. Please note my brother it does not state apostles nor does it give the typical descriptor of disciples (refering to the apostles), but states 'those that believe' being in the form of a general statement about a group a of people.

    As I said, Church documents and history tells us the historical record and we should go back an see what they had to say on the issue.
     
  16. Jedi Knight

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    Another brother pointed it out as part of the same package"sign gifts". Now as far as scripture showing spots of the "sign gifts" on certain accounts but not showing more......well as the apostle John pointed out, John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
     
    #16 Jedi Knight, Jul 15, 2009
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  17. Darrenss1

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    Allen I mentioned sign gifts of the Apostles because it is relevant to the subject "casting out devils". That is, the casting out of devils originated with the Apostles and seems to be no indication that was passed over into the regular christian crowd of the NT, in 1 Corinthians casting out demons was not named as a gift of the Holy Spirit. I feel it is important not to make a standard that is universal for all time IF the bible doesn't necessarily state it to be so. Could it have an opposite meaning? Whereas Mark 16:17-18 are the "signs" of those that DO believe, is it true than that the absence of signs (wonders if you prefer) means they DO NOT believe?

    Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    That's why I think its relevant to take note of the specific ministries to identify their function and attributes. To me an Apostle was unique and should not be viewed as the standard for all christians to function as.

    Darren
     
  18. Darrenss1

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    Those that are practicing the casting out of devils are casting demons out of christians usually members of their own church; that's different from casting demons out of any average Joe off the streets. Literally christians are being told they have a demon that needs to be cast out of them because the christian has certain thoughts, sins, difficulties (you name it) that are being attributed to a demon spirit. This confuses the issue of the flesh nature and replaces it with demon spirit, that's how I see it.

    Now again, to me it comes back to the sign gift of an Apostle of casting out of demons, IF casting out of demons is the ONLY solution the NT christians had left to offer those whom are NOT saved but are possessed of a devil. Casting out demons from an unsaved person is no different in my opinion to praying for healing and salvation, they both require lifting up someone for specific needs before God and leaving the results to the Lord.

    Darren
     
  19. Allan

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    Now hold up. Who said anything about casting demons out of christians. And if you think that is what is going on in the main, stop believing everything you see on TV :)


    No that is only by 'some' certain charismatic groups. Mostly those who watch TBN and are apart of certain heretical beliefs like the prosperity gospel, and Word of Faith garbage, and name it and claim drivel. However there arer many other christian groups (and even charismatics groups) who do not hold to such nonsense.


    Where does it state there are sign gifts that only apostles had?? The apostles (13 - which includes Paul) can be given a good argument that they were impowered with 'all' the spiritual gifts in order to do and full their extraordinary calling.

    Still, who said all non-believers are possessed. Their are people possessed but not everyone who does not believe is possessed.

    If we look back over church history however, we see even through the next 3 centuries after the apostles deaths we still see the church via the early Church fathers writings casting out demons, still laying hands on the sick and praying, still declaring the amazing miracles of not being hurt by poisons or many other things.

    The casting out of a demon has nothing to do with a 'gift' but has to do with authority. If you are an ambassador of Christ, and Child of the King then by right - you are endowed with the authority of the one you represent and of who your lineage procedes from.

    Have you ever dealt with a demon possessed person? I have. And both experience and scripture will tell you they are not the same thing. You do not find Paul asking God to remove the demon from the lady. What you do read/see is that Paul commands the demon to leave her. :saint:
     
  20. Allan

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    Brother, these are NOT sign gifts..

    There is no gift drinking poisons and not being hurt.
    There is no gift of being bitten by a snake and not being hurt.
    There is no gift of casting out demons.

    This is speaking of things (meaning more than this) that will follow/accompany those who believe.. Not the apostles, and not pastors or prophets.. those who believe.

    It is just the same as saying - the most amazing things will be said about those who believe in me, such as ...

    Jesus does not give an exhaustive listing but in that listing are things that happen 'to' the followers of God and something miraculous (sign) happens.
    This in fact does validate who they are (believers) by the fact God is at work, in them, around them, and for them.
     

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